iceaxedave Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Does anyone have any information or practical experience using pack animals to help transport gear to the base of a climb (base camp) here in the pacific northwest? What are the environmental issues? What are the national park rules/issues? What are the national forest rules/issues? Did you use horses or llamas? Are llamas actually less damaging to the terrain than a horse? What outfits exist that provide these services and at what cost? As a working professional it would be nice to get the approach on a remote climb over as fast as possible and spend more time on the climb and high on the mountains. Anyone with actual experience out there have a comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Yeah, I have llamas, and my experience suggests that they suck for the purpose you propose. >They walk slower than most people, and require at least as much conditioning to be in shape and carry decent loads very far. As an owner, I just didn't have the time to spend hiking them around with loads, so my llama packing trips have invariably had sessions of porter strike, where the pesky camelids just lay down in the trail. >They do best on trails, which only get you so close to the good stuff. Talus fields? fuggedaboutit. Slide alder? no chance. >Llamas do indeed have a much lower impact than horses, since they both weigh less and have soft pads with toenails instead of hoofs. Some districts recognize this, and will allow them on trails closed to other stock, some districts don't. Mt Rainier for instance acknowledges no difference, and you'll be very limited in where you can go. Baker-Snoqualamie NF is much more generous, and they use them to supply trail crews and such. >All the impedimentia, llama wrangling, and beast management consume time and attention. Push comes to shove, I'd just as soon throw all the shit on my back and just have myself to deal with. >There are commercial packers out there, but I don't know much about the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Yeah but you can snuggle up with them at the bivi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 goats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Yeah but you can snuggle up with them at the bivi. Or eat them. Can't say I didn't think about it a time or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Girlfriend. Oh wait... if she goes I'm the pack animal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 What the heck you plan on packin' in? Cast iron skillets and a canvas cabin w/wood stove? Most folks I've climbed with would cause a camel to canter to keep-up. Pack animals are a hassle, a bane on the environment (in most instances), and noisome to others (of course, many climbers are malodorous themselves). Besides, you should know better than to mention "pack animals" in this Bestiality Asylum... you beg banishment for inciting a riot. Off-White - "impedimentia", nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graupel Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Outfitters http://www.travelersdigest.com/llama_trekking.htm Cascade Corrals, based in Stehekin North Cascade Outfitters Pasayten Llama Packing Kit's Llamas (Olympics) Deli Llama Wilderness Adventures (Olympics & Pasayten) Commercial Llama packers (other areas) Early Winters Outfitters (Pasayten) Forest Service regulations Forest Service retiring their pack animals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraken Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I was up in Talkeetna and went to Todd Burleson's house (Owner of Alpine Ascents, Himalayan climber, 8 time everest summitter) and he has a pack of Himalayan yaks which he had sent up here to Alaska from Nepal. He is raising them to pack around the Talkeetnas. He just flew down to Seattle and flew in a few Sherpas from Nepal to train the animals. It's pretty damn cool. He has about 8 or 9 of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelawgoddess Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 saw a pack of llamas on the way to mount olympus a few years ago. guess they're allowed over there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberdinka Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 In Peru I used both llamas and burrows to haul my gear into various camps. I never understood the use of llamas. They carry half as much, walk half as slow, require constant proding and cost twice as much! WTF! Then talk about trying to get a load on their back, that was the most dangerous part of the trip. It's always seemed like a great idea for the Pasayten or Wind Rivers but the cost is probably untenably high for people use to doing it on the cheap. It's gotta be what? at least $100 a day a guide, $50 a day an animal. So $300 to get your shit in there and then how are you going to get it back out!? Be cool to hear more first hand experiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 goats I got chased by a heard of pack goats a few years ago. Wandered into camp very late (12:00?), after a mini-epic with a small herd of newbies on the trail (1/2 dollar sized blisters, puking from trying to go too fast and inexperience with a pack, falling into rivers, becoming part of a parade route,.... twice.... flat tires, cowboys driving cattle). Got to our expected camp at midnight, and see this group of disembodies eyes floating 4 ft off the ground in the middle of the Sawtooths, and I start to get nervous. I'm thinking WTF has eyes that are 4 ft off the ground way the hell out here and travel in packs , racoon... too high, deer... to low, bear... too many.... cougar... way to many ? At which time I see this small herd of domestic goats with 16 inch horns wander into headlamp range, as I breath a sigh of relief. ..... Followed shortly by a disembodied voice in the unmistakable southern Idaho redneck drawl...."ya'll got dawgs?" me... "Yeah we got dogs" ...."Them goats is wild, they'll kill your dawgs" so we grab the dogs and start heading the other direction around the lake with all possible haste. Of course, being well trained pack goat, they like to follow people.....so we end up with 2 people holding the very curious dogs and 3 people running interference with the goats until the owner comes to get them one at a time. Was a very freaky experience. Turns out this family goes up there (Goat Lake believe it or not) every year with their pack goats, whom they leave untehtered over night so they can defend themselves with their big pointy horns should a predator come around. Hell of a trip. Shit just kept going. Didn't actually end until my wife and I were in the air on the way home (prior to which I managed to lose my wallet, and there were "electrical" difficulties with the plane.", all in 2 1/2 days). freakin pack goats..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 ...a pack of Himalayan yaks which he had sent up here to Alaska from Nepal. It's pretty damn cool. He has about 8 or 9 of them. Do Himalayan Yaks have any indigenous predators here... hmmmMMMM? Shit, it'll be like Oz and rabbits here soon... ...freakin' Himalayan Yaks runnin' rampant on city streets, causin car wrecks, matin' with livestock, and causin' carnage over hill and yon. Do you think there's Himalayan Yak in the genealogy of risk-taking climbers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couloir Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 And every body of water a llama crosses, small or large, they have to piss and shit in it! WTF!? My parents have llamas and goats. If I had to choose I'd take the goats. But even those little fuckers spar a lot with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Tintin - Capt Haddocks insults By Book! Prisoners of the Sun 1. [to llama] ‘Ungrateful brute’ 2. [to the Thompsons] Nitwits 3. [to Thomson] Landlubber 4. [to Tintin] Stupid 5. [to the bad guys] Guanogatherers 6. [to bad guys] Iconoclasts 7. [to bad guys] Pirates 8. [to Snowy] Sealion 9. [to the Thompsons] Baboons 10. [to the bad guys (who kidnapped Calculus)] Gangsters 11. [to South Americans] Centipedes 12. [to llamas] Fire-pumps 13. [to llamas] ‘Moth-eaten imitation camels’ 14. [to llama] ‘Misarable iconoclast’ 15. [to a lizard] ‘Misarable reptile’ 16. [to the kidnappers] Gangsters 17. [to the kidnappers] Bandits 18. [to the kidnappers] Filibusters 19. [to the kidnappers] Pirates 20. [to llamas] Raggle-taggle 21. [to llamas] Ruminants 22. [to llamas] ‘Cushion-footed’ 23. [to llamas] Quadrupeds 24. [to llamas] Morons 25. [to bad guys] Filibusters 26. [to bad guys] Weevils 27. [to bad guys] Slubberdegullions 28. [to bad guys] Patagonians 29. [to bad guys] Bashi-bazouks 30. [to bad guys] Carpet-sellers 31. [to bad guys] Kleptomaniacs 32. [to monkeys] 'Pithecanthropic mountebanks' 33. [to mosquitoes] Beastly 34. [to alligators] 'Loathsome brutes' 35. [to attacking Incas] Anachronisms 36. [to Incas] Tramps 37. [to Incas] Zapotecs 38. [to Incas] Pockmarks 39. [to Incas] Pithecanthropuses 40. [to Incas] Bashi-bazouks 41. [to Incas] Savages 42. [to Incas] Sea-gherkins 43. [to Incas] Ectoplasms 44. [to Incas] Poltroons 45. [to Incas] Politicians 46. [to Incas] Doryphores 47. [to Incas] Terrorists 48. [to Noble Prince of the Sun] 'Tin-hatted tryant' 49. [to Incas] Savages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceaxedave Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 This was what I was looking for I want to go back and spend time on Mount Olympus and not have to worry about packing the extra food and fuel necessary for such a trip. Being able to spend a few extra days on the mountain when the weather is bad and waiting for a clearing would be reason enough to hire an outfitter to carry the extra load to the high horse camp at the end of the Hoh river trail. Thanks Graupel! I'll toast you and the info tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceaxedave Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 By the way, I'm wanting to try Olympus (again) next year, Look forward to a post in the "Climbing Partners" forum if you are interested in going and sharing the cost! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Have you seen the trip reports coming out of the standard route on Olympus? Sounds like it's already in really rough condition. Well beyond a low key glacier slog already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 not have to worry about packing the extra food and fuel necessary for such a trip. An extra 5-10lbs makes that big a difference? If you pay me 1/2 of what the outfitter costs I'll drag it up to the glacier for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macson Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I've not climbed with them, but have taken several extended back country trips with horses (both pack horses and riding horses) in pretty steep terrain. I understand that hiring an outfitter is pretty damned pricey. We use my parents' horses. There are many places you aren't supposed to go, which is probably the biggest single issue. Also, to do this on your own takes a bit of skill with packing. It's not like you just shove 150 lbs of gear in the saddlebags. There are several environmental issues, one being erosion and damage to the ground, but the big one is feed. If you are not in an area with suitable grazing you need to carry feed and it really needs to be certified weed free. Rangers who come upon you with a couple bails of hay from your barn get pretty excited about the weeds your spreading to the mountains. Mmm, napweed on Mt. Olympus... Another big downside is that horse care takes up a huge portion of your time. There's no way to recoup this lost time. Getting to base camp with horses will always take as long, or longer than hopping out of your car, throwing the pack on and going. That said, it can be pretty damned nice gaining 4,000' without breaking a sweat and sleeping in a huge wall tent with a wood stove in November. It's like bringing your RV to Marmot Pass. Your shitting, eating, drinking, roaming, loud, smelly, spooked RV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceaxedave Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 SELKIRK: Try it "next year"...if conditions are a go. cj001f: After a quick look over the web sites posted by Graupel, having a llama driver drop off most of the heavy gear and then going with a day pack to the high horse camp (15+) miles seems like a good reason. Why get footsore or take too many days on an approach and miss out on camping on the snow dome, or having to bail due to poor weather when there could be an opportunity to wait it out. I'd still be carrying a full pack on the way out. (Unless the cost analysis works in our favor... # of people vs outfitter prices = have outfitter pack the gear in and out.) Just exploring the options...want to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjor Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Horses, Goats, Yaks, Ilamas, Camels and Donkeys are aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 After a quick look over the web sites posted by Graupel, having a llama driver drop off most of the heavy gear and then going with a day pack to the high horse camp (15+) miles seems like a good reason. Why get footsore or take too many days on an approach and miss out on camping on the snow dome, or having to bail due to poor weather when there could be an opportunity to wait it out. There's at least one very important consideration you're forgetting: You might get dirty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Or you could break a fingernail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtyleaf Posted July 1, 2005 Share Posted July 1, 2005 One of my favorite hikes on the peninsula is Enchanted Valley. It is a thirteen mile hike from the trailhead to the valley where there is a three story chalet that houses rangers during the summer and spring. While they stay there for up to a few months out of the year they have a chain of 8-10 llamas that pack in the food and supplies to the rangers. The llamas were accompanied by the handler and an ONP ranger. Their expressions while trying to get the llamas through a creek said it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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