Attn. cc.com girlie men! (You know who you are)

[fenderfour]

Pacifist

[Stefan]

Black box recordings prove that at 9:57 a.m., a contingent of passengers "overwhelmed" (i.e., killed) the hijackers in Flight 93's cabin and bashed their way into the cockpit of the plane, which was being piloted toward Washington by the two surviving hijackers. As they were being overcome, the jihad "pilots" ditched the plane in a field in Shanksville, Pa., rather than die fighting.

 

Ummmm. I thought the 9/11 Commission said the voice cockpit recordings could hear people banging on the cockpit door. The 9/11 Commission assumed the hijackers knew the door was going to be broken down soon and so directed the plane downward. Noone ever broke into the cockpit--but they tried.

 

Black box recordings cannot show a contingent of people breaking into the cockpit.

 

I guess the descrepancy shows the validity of this article.

[Fairweather]

Combined days in combat of Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, and Perle: ZERO!

 

Girlie enough for you?

 

And where was Clinton during Vietnam? Leading student demonstrations at Cambridge and America-bashing in Moscow! Yet this did not later preclude him from military adventures in the former Yugoslav republics...or, undoubtedly, from receiving your vote and support.

[mattp]

Fairweather:

 

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!

 

Clinton is not running for reelection.

 

The point here is, as already pointed out, Bush and the chicken-hawks are politically vulnerable because their guy evaded military service whereas their challenger served with honor. All those who served with him verify his valor, but the chicken-hawks parade around a bunch of guys who happened to be somewhere in Vietnam at the same time who say Kerry lied about some part of his military record. And then they try to tell us that anybody who would cricitize a veteran or a warrior or a "wartime president" is a "girlie man."

 

Wake up, buddy. You are a complete drone if you swallow this particular load of B.S. and don't see the hypocrisy here. Find another "talking point."

[RuMR]

[Greg_W]

No, Matt, Clinton is not running again but Fairweather's point is well-taken: nobody cried foul about Clinton committing troops more than any other president since FDR and his lack of military experience. Not to metion his protests about the Viet Nam War.

 

The jury is still out on whether Kerry "served with valor" or not. Funny you say he served with valor, yet he called himself a war criminal at the time. Which is it? The Bush Administration is not "parading around" John O'Neill and the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth; they are working on their own initiative to right what they feel is an error in Kerry's memory of events that Kerry was involved in. They were a little more involved with Kerry than you claim by saying that they "happened to be somewhere in Vietnam at the same time..." These men were involved in the action Kerry touts, one was his CO, and another was on Kerry's crew.

[Greg_W]

 

sheep.

[RuMR]

i see you are gettin' horny again...

[rbw1966]

No, Matt, Clinton is not running again but Fairweather's point is well-taken: nobody cried foul about Clinton committing troops more than any other president since FDR and his lack of military experience. Not to metion his protests about the Viet Nam War.

 

Are you are arguing that someone is "crying foul" about Bush sending troops into battle despite his not having experience in combat? If someone did that in this thread I missed it.

 

What I am reading in this thread is the assertion in the article posted by Fairweather that Bush is somehow more masculine than Kerry. My argument is that Kerry served in combat while Bush did not, therefore Bush is not more masculine than Kerry. Fairweather's injection of Clinton into this argument is a red herring.

[Greg_W]

[markinore]

No, Matt, Clinton is not running again but Fairweather's point is well-taken: nobody cried foul about Clinton committing troops more than any other president since FDR and his lack of military experience. Not to metion his protests about the Viet Nam War.

 

Among the big differences between Clinton's and Bush's use of military force is that Clinton didn't use a rationale that proved to be false, didn't get troops bogged down in a quagmire, didn't expend resources that detracts from chasing down Al Qaeda, and didn't serve to augment the recruiting efforts of Al Qaeda. I didn't particularly like Clinton either, but at least he didn't create a mess like Bush.

 

The jury is still out on whether Kerry "served with valor" or not. Funny you say he served with valor, yet he called himself a war criminal at the time. Which is it? The Bush Administration is not "parading around" John O'Neill and the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth; they are working on their own initiative to right what they feel is an error in Kerry's memory of events that Kerry was involved in. They were a little more involved with Kerry than you claim by saying that they "happened to be somewhere in Vietnam at the same time..." These men were involved in the action Kerry touts, one was his CO, and another was on Kerry's crew.

 

Odd, isn't it, that those who were on Kerry's boat, those who saw him in action, invariably have the highest regard for him, and the attacks are coming from those who weren't even there?

[Greg_W]

Kosovo wasn't a quagmire, Mark? Come on.

 

His machinegunner is a member of Swiftboat Veterans for Truth and doesn't have too much good to say for him. He was on his second tour when he came on to Kerry's crew; I think that qualifies him to comment on the quality of a swiftboat operator.

[markinore]

Kosovo a quagmire? Do we have over 100,000 troops in Kosovo? Do we have a back door draft of reservists because our army is spread too thin in Kosovo? If you do think Kosovo is a quagmire, must you not admit that Iraq is a far worse quagmire?

 

Let's face it, in all of America's attempts to "straighten out" other countries since WW II, we've gotten it right exactly twice: Japan and Germany. Both of these countries had the advantages of substantial ethnic and religious homogeneity and long-standing traditions of government, economic stability, and social order. In too many attempts at nation building (regardless of whether that term is used), America fails in one of two ways: either we install a malleable government that is eventually overthrown by a regime that hates us (see Vietnam, Iran) or we install a criminal or fanatic who we then have to deal with ourselves (Panama, Afghanistan). I guess the only question about Iraq now is which type of failure are we going to see?

[Szyjakowski]

didn't we once like saddam hussein? Like in the days of oli north and friends. we have failed already in that fukin nightmare place called the holyland.....

and speaking of holyland, obviously the people who dubbed it this never saw the Cascades! but dont tell them that.

[Off_White]

Fairweather's injection of Clinton into this argument is a red herring.

 

So Clinton gives Fairweather wood, isn't that a man's man kind of behavior?

 

btw, John Wayne was a fag.

[Fairweather]

Fairweather:

 

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!

 

Clinton is not running for reelection.

 

No. But he provides a clear example of the glaring hypocricy you, and those like you, so regularly display.

 

The point here is, as already pointed out, Bush and the chicken-hawks are politically vulnerable because their guy evaded military service whereas their challenger served with honor. All those who served with him verify his valor, but the chicken-hawks parade around a bunch of guys who happened to be somewhere in Vietnam at the same time who say Kerry lied about some part of his military record.

If this is true, then why won't Kerry release his military service records? One of the swift boat accusers is a retired Rear Admiral and was Kerry's CO, for god's sake! The boats patrolled in groups of 5. Are you suggesting that one had to be on Kerry's boat to see him in action?

And then they try to tell us that anybody who would cricitize a veteran or a warrior or a "wartime president" is a "girlie man."

 

Wake up, buddy. You are a complete drone if you swallow this particular load of B.S. and don't see the hypocrisy here. Find another "talking point."

Actually, Matt, I think it is you who is swallowing the party line ala Michael Moore's movie, etc. (How is that DNC spoo? ) The book is due out in September...let's see what it has to say.

 

I would also point out that regardless of his actions in Vietnam (or Christmas in Cambodia ) his actions upon his return home should be the real issue!

 

 

 

[Fairweather]

Among the big differences between Clinton's and Bush's use of military force is that Clinton didn't use a rationale that proved to be false,

 

Are you serious? Maybe you were too young to remember...The rationale given by Clinton was the supposed massacre of "ten thousand ethnic Albanians" in the Kosovo region. This was later demonstrated to be patently false.

[AlpineK]

I'd like to see Bush and Cheney gang raped by the Borax 20 Mule team.

[mattp]

Fairweather and Greg:

 

I remain totally confused over why you guys seem fixated on Kosovo, and keep comparing it to Iraq. Not one American died in Kosovo. We flew over at 5,000 feet dropping bombs - at the request of or with complete approval of our European allies. We never occupied Kosovo. I don't think anybody has alleged that we may have been motivated for our own military or financial objectives. It does not appear to be a rallying point for generations of terrorists.

 

Aside from repeating some snippet from an old Fox news commentary, just what is your point in harping on Clinton in Kosovo all the time? I still don't get it. (Though if you think the Democrats are a bunch of losers, I'll have to agree--its just that I think they are a better bet than Bush and his band of liars.)

[Fairweather]

Matt,

 

I remain totally confused over your failure to understand the hypocricy that I point out vis a vis those who continue to blindly support Democrats. Some folks here have a problem with GWB's military service record; fine. But these tend to be a lot of the same people who supported Clinton even though his service record is totally lacking. Do these-now Bush detractors really put a premium on military service? Many of them are pacifists who would be outraged by some of the actions John Kerry has admitted to taking part in while serving in Vietnam. Again, these aren't your typical military supporters. Where was their outrage at Clinton when our air force ripped open a convoy of Kosovar refugees killing dozens? Or when we destroyed a Belgrade bridge with a missile strike killing 19 on a commuter train? I follow these things closely, Matt, and I didn't hear the condemnation...then, or now. There was no American interest in Kosovo! This is why the left supported (or sat silently by) Clinton's big adventure.

 

I believe that the vast majority of Kerry supporters are driven by their hatred of Republicans. Why is one war that was not supported by the UN, better than another? Because one was in our national interest, and one was not? This is where the self-loathing, anti-Americanism comes in to play, IMO. Additionally, they like the social welfare state that Kerry would likely try to impose versus Bush's Reaganesque economic ideas. Fine. But why all this pretending by the left regarding their interest in military service? Really! It just doesn't work.

 

Again; why won't John Kerry, who has based much of his campaign on his military service, release his military service records? Why?

[pope]

One of the swift boat accusers is a retired Rear Admiral and was Kerry's CO, for god's sake! The boats patrolled in groups of 5. Are you suggesting that one had to be on Kerry's boat to see him in action?

 

Um....I wish to go on record....in fact, several of my Texas National Guard buddies and I wish to go on record...let's see, we'll call ourselves NOSE CANDY VETS FOR TRUTH....we would like to share our insight into the President's character and ability to lead. First of all, let me just say that back in the day, "W" could snort a mean line. I actually didn't see this but I don't like the guy and we were both in the Texas Guard at one time or another and it is convenient for me to make these claims, given my political agenda. Furthermore, I once sat in dental chair and talked to a guy who said his brother's girlfriend's sister's cousin had sat in the same dental chair and witnessed "W" having some work done (I must admit that outside of that episode, nobody in NOSECANDY VETS FOR TRUTH ever saw "W" on base). My dental difficulties resulted from cocaine abuse. Naturally, I can only assume that "W" experienced similar problems and therefore he shouldn't receive any military honors for his heroic and legendary bravery in that Texas National Guard dental chair.

[gotterdamerung]

It's my guess that 99% of the posters who continually berate Bush for having admitted to snorting cocaine are the same people who smoke dope every day and never served even one second in ANY branch of service. Even long enough to not show up. The point is moot and your criticisms sound more like hypocrisy.

[snoboy]

snoboy - proud member of the 1%

 

[Szyjakowski]

i berate bush because he a friken moron who does not think for himself. something he has proven over and over and over again with his brilliant ability to communicate in English. i really think it is a shame people will vote for him just because he is a republican.

szyjakowski- proud member of the 99% but also a grandson of a veteran, a brother of an aspiring naval academy recruit and soldier for mother earth.

 

Edit: thanks snowbyrd, damn medication

Edited August 14, 2004 by Szyjakowski

[Scott_J]

 

 

btw, John Wayne was a fag.

You're going to smoke a TURD in hell for that comment, motherfucker!