Rapping with one rope and a ball of twine

[jordop]

When I rap with a fifi hook, I only bring on rope.

I fix the end of it to the hook and rap 60m. To get my rope back, i simply push up on the rope to unhook the fifi.

 

you "push up" on the rope? Are you climbing with a 60m still wire or something??

You need a bucket of steam to do this.

[Ducknut]

When I rap with a fifi hook, I only bring on rope.

I fix the end of it to the hook and rap 60m. To get my rope back, i simply push up on the rope to unhook the fifi.

 

 

you "push up" on the rope? Are you climbing with a 60m still wire or something??

You need a bucket of steam to do this.

Mike you starching your ropes? What with? Nevermind, I don't want to know

 

[korup]

Whenever I hear "trick" and "rapping" in close proximity, I get the heebies. It's dangerous enough, why futz around with slick setups? I supose they are good to know for emergency (I just dropped a rope, etc) situations, but.... I'd rather stack that deck in my favor as much as possible.

 

just my piddly $0.03

[ivan]

just my piddly $0.03

christ, inflation is hitting everywhere!

[chris]

I use a 7mm rap line, and tie it to the 9.4mm lead line with two overhands (aka euro-death knots). If I'm using a 10mm+ lead line, then I use a figure-eight. If I'm really nervous, I'll thread the lead rope through the rap-ring for the "catch the knot trick."

Believe it or not, the overhand is just as strong as a figure-eight, only harder to untie. Both share the "rolling" characteristic to go over edges, making either knot acceptable - just make sure you have plenty of tail! There has been static load evidence that smaller-diameter cord, such as 6mm, may pull through an overhand knot when more than 300 lbs are applied. The diameter of the lead line, and the difference between the two, appear to play a role in this as well as well.

I've been using this strategy now for five years, and I'm still walking this earth. Either my mom's Irish luck is working for me too, or I'm doing something right...

I haven't gone smaller than 7mm for a couple of reasons; 1) it gets hard to grip 5-6mm cord in bare hands, let alone gloved, and 2) I actually have my rap line about twenty feet longer than my lead line, so if I need to leave behind rap anchors, I can simply cut the end of the 7mm, and 7mm strength = aprox. 5000 lbs of force, which means in can be used in climbing anchors too.

[willstrickland]

Believe it or not, the overhand is just as strong as a figure-eight, only harder to untie. Both share the "rolling" characteristic to go over edges, making either knot acceptable - just make sure you have plenty of tail!

 

A fig8 version of the EDK has a greater propensity to "roll/capsize/etc" along the strands than an overhand. (not the same kind of roll as in "pass over terrain "like you are talking about). DO NOT TIE THIS KNOT.

 

I HIGHLY SUGGEST you read this study (don't miss the chart of results at the bottom where Fig8 style EDK capsized at 300lb and less).

 

http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

[layton]

gottcha with the pushing up on the rope

[Bronco]

How about rope management tips if you rap in a storm wearing your tent like a catalouge either off of a fifi hook or a keychain biner?

[Dru]

do you mean a cagoule?

[JoshK]

just my piddly $0.03

christ, inflation is hitting everywhere!

 

 

[Bronco]

do you mean a cagoule?

 

are you contradicting me?

 

so what do you think? keychain biner or fifi hook?

[Dru]

feef OF COURSE. it says NOT FOR CLIMBING USE right on keychain biner. you are unsafe for even considering that!

[layton]

I saw a description in a british how to climb handbook of how to rap off snow with two ice axes or pictets as anchors and them be able to retrieve them!

 

slot the pickets(or ax) sideways, the other one straight down in front. Attach a prussic to the top of the rope near the knot and to the sideways slotted picket or ax. attach a sling to the other picket.

Pull the prussik side to unslot the sideways piece and that will yoink out the downward slotted piece. Enjoy steaming mugs of cocoa while your partner easily catches the tumbling rope and pickets or axes. Apply wound maintainence when finished, or reclimb the pitch when everything gets jammed up.

 

You can also girth hitch an anchor and attach a prussic to the rope on the pull side, the other end of the prussick to the outside loop of the girth hitch. Like magic, nothing gets fucking stuck, and you get your sling back!

 

I like to employ these tricks on really really really steep raps with lots of horns and ledges and flakes.

 

-just my canadian $345.56

[Spliffy]

You can also attach a prussik to the trigger on a cam. When you're done rapping, pull on one side of the rope, the prussik tightens, and the cam pops out like magic. No more tat littering the mountains, either.

[Spliffy]

This setup works really well, too:

 

It's basically an EDK with a double-square-knot-double-figure-eights-follow-throughs-on-bights knot, with overhands-on-bights-with-biners-and-double-fishermen backups. I use it all the time when I triad climb on TR, but it works really well in the mountains.

[slothrop]

The real question is, what's the effective strength of that knot?

[rbw1966]

YOu'd die of old age before you had that set up.

[cj001f]

But is there a backup for the backup for the backup knot?

[billcoe]

 

 

 

 

Damn that's some funny stuff you guys have going up there.

[Dru]

in the bugaboos or similar places:

 

tie rope to rap anchor with clove hitch or fig-8 at one end

 

rappel

 

wait for to chew through rope at anchor

 

collect rope below chew and repeat.

 

if the is not properly trained and eats your rope through half-way down instead of at the far end you will experience quickly diminishing returns. therefore a small jar of p-nut butter will help to ensure the eats the correct section of rope.

[chris]

Believe it or not, the overhand is just as strong as a figure-eight, only harder to untie. Both share the "rolling" characteristic to go over edges, making either knot acceptable - just make sure you have plenty of tail!

A fig8 version of the EDK has a greater propensity to "roll/capsize/etc" along the strands than an overhand. (not the same kind of roll as in "pass over terrain "like you are talking about). DO NOT TIE THIS KNOT.

 

I HIGHLY SUGGEST you read this study (don't miss the chart of results at the bottom where Fig8 style EDK capsized at 300lb and less).

 

Will,

I looked up the report you're refering to - its several years older then the data I have (1999 versus 2002). Using a flat knot is accepted standard of practice within the International Federation of Mountain Guide Associations (IFMGA or UIAGM), and the AMGA. More recent studies have shown it to be reliable. Also, all the "flipping" at less than 300 lbs in the 1999 study occurred in "sloppy" knots. Furthermore, that study was addressing the knots use in Rescue scenarios, which can easily have loads over 600 pounds.

And please re-read my original post. I actually use two overhand knots - the first to hold the weight, and a second to act as a stoper in the event that the first flips. I have never had a flat knot flip, neither the figure eight nor the overhand.

It may take a few weeks, but I'll try to get the data I have posted. It would make for interesting discussion.

[fishstick]

I have used the system a fair amount. I think 50m of 5mm weighs 737g. It must be kept in a throw bag as wind affects the light line quite badly. Not super useful when you know you're going to do a pile of bad raps, but very good for those just in case trips (potential rain on the apron). I use it in combination with an 8.1 when soloing waterfalls that demand raps. The biner jams very easily in trees or bush! It's worth making the extra effort to get very clean raps. The ideal throw bag is a small fanny pack. You need to be very careful when stacking it in such to avoid tangles.

Actually, rather than throw the system, just rap on the main line and let it feed out of the fanny (facing forward). Stiffer cord is better, but usually more expensive. Use the smallest locking biner you can find for the top.

 

Cheers,

 

GB

[Stefan]

just jump you chickens.

 

seriously though you can rap off a skyhook and shake it till it comes down after. then you dont need the ball of twine. light is right.

 

I have never tried this but I have heard several people doing this to save weight.

 

My question: Use of a skyhook or fifi hook, aren't you guys afraid of the "hook" dislodging into some type of rock crevasse when the rope comes down, thereby requiring you to climb back up and dislodge it???

[Dru]

what are you - a sissy?

[dberdinka]

just jump you chickens.

 

seriously though you can rap off a skyhook and shake it till it comes down after. then you dont need the ball of twine. light is right.

 

I have never tried this but I have heard several people doing this to save weight.

 

I think a vast majority of climbers would find that their life is worth more than the extra weight of a very light pull line. w00t! w00t! to folks crazy enough to put all their faith into one skyhook.