Axe Length

[K_Y_L_E]

I am 5'11" and when standing my hand (palm) is approx 80 cm from the floor. I have an 85cm Trango Piolet Ultralight. I work with a woman that swears I am insane for having an axe over 60cm long. However I love the length. It is great for balance when walking, makes a bomb-proof anchor, is not any more difficult to arrest with than a shorter axe, and keeps me 25cm farther away from bears and cougars. Now if one of the primary functions of an alpine axe is as a "walking stick" why would I want a 55cm axe that forces me to hunch over rather than remain upright? Any opinions on this? How do you choose a length? Obviously shorter has advantages as the slope grade increases, but for general use.......?

[b-rock]

I'm 6' and my axe is 80cm I think. For anything I don't want two tools for it works just fine. The extra length makes for a more comfortable position especially on softer snow where I'm plunging the shaft. It's a bit unwieldy on the pack and adds extra ounces but those are small tradeoffs IMO.

[fenderfour]

I'm 6'3" and My preferred axe is 65 cm. A long axe is fine on open glaciers, but bushwhacking with an 80cm monster tied to your pack will suck.

 

You may also have some difficulty when the slopes get steeper. Not a big deal, you will just have to lift your axe higher when using it as a self-belay.

 

I like to rely on balance and not on a walking stick. If I want a stick, I bring trekking poles.

 

In the end, it's whatever you prefer.

[Jason_Martin]

To start with, one thing should be made clear. The primary purpose of your axe is not as a "walking stick." The primary purpose of extendible trekking poles is as walking sticks.

 

Your axe has a number of purposes, first and formost as a tool for climbing. On super low angle glaciers (20 degrees or less) where your axe hangs from your hand to your feet, perhaps a long axe is acceptable. But that type of length is not realistic for climbing.

 

The primary purpose of the tool is to ascend steep terrain. This may be done by swinging the tool above your head with your hand at the base of the shaft. In this scenario serious length hinders your ability to place the axe effectively.

 

A second way to ascend is by using the axe in one of the three dagger postions. A long axe will work here, but may become annoying.

 

A third way to climb is in the so called "Self Belay" position. This is where you insert the shaft of the axe into the snow while holding onto the head. If the snow is steep enough for this, a long axe will require a lot more effort to place than a short axe.

 

A fourth way to ascend is by chopping steps with your adze. If the axe is long on steep terrain you will not be able to hold the base of the axe effectively and as such will be making ineffective chopping swings with your hand somewhere up the shaft closer to the head. A long axe may also throw you out of balance in this situation which would be very bad.

 

The secondary use of the axe is for self arrest. And once again a long axe may be unwieldy here. If you do not hold the base of the shaft you may lose control of it, thus impaling yourself. I've seen a lot of people hold the shaft in the wrong spot, making it more likely that they will get hurt... This occurs less often with a shorter axe.

 

Another arguement for the short axe is that when you ascend mountains with short sections of rock, it's nice to holster your axe or slide it between your pack and your back while you use your hands. Holstering a long axe is just dumb because it will get in your way. You could probably still put it between your back and your pack.

 

A last arguement is that a big fat long axe is heavy.

 

My feeling is that if the glacier is low angle enough to warrant a super long axe, perhaps ski poles would be better. If that makes you nervous, get whippets for your poles.

 

Jason

[lummox]

i am six foot tall when standin erect. but my simian skeleton aint really designed for upright walking. however ---despite this obivious physical handicap-- i dont need a cane to walk with. i use an ice axe for climbing. steep stuff. 55 cm is nice for that stuff. ski poles are nice for walking. got it now kyle?

[iain]

Too short of an axe can put you on steep enough terrain for taking a bad fall but not steep enough to do solid self-belays or check your balance very well. I usually use a 55cm axe and it can get annoying on the sub-45 degree terrain. If you are skiing it is nice to have a short axe though.

[Jason_Martin]

Often on low angle terrain, I'll walk with my axe in one hand and a ski pole in the other...

 

Jason

[lummox]

chaka no get 'annoyed' but terrain steepness. chop wood. carry water. then you might snatch the pebbles.

[billcoe]

iain answered for me as well.

[Dr_Crash]

I'm 5'11" and have been using a 65 cm ice ax, and it's great. When buying my own, I'm considering going to 60 cm, though 65 cm is really nice as far as being the right length across my chess when self-arresting, and it works great for glissading. It's not too big for skiing, and anything longer than that would be way too long. If I need support on flats, I'll buy collapsible poles.

 

drC

[specialed]

Long axes are worthless. Unless the terrain is steep you don't need one all. Its not a walking stick it a fucking ice and snow tool.

[b-rock]

I certainly wasn't arguing that it's a walking stick, but on moderate slopes say 20-45 degrees it does make for a more comfortable and secure climbing position. I wouldn't want to try to arrest with ski poles if the snow was hard. Maybe I just need to start climbing harder routes...

[cj001f]

Unless the terrain is steep you don't need one all.

You've never been on moderate terrain with large exposure? (above a cliff)

[specialed]

Unless the terrain is steep you don't need one all.

You've never been on moderate terrain with large exposure? (above a cliff)

 

Don't fall or just make due with your short axe.

[K_Y_L_E]

specialed.....is the axe a "ice and snow tool".....or are you?

sorry could not resist...just kidding.

I suppose it is all personal preference. I am not climbing the Kautz ice wall or anything here but, I have never had a problem with my 80cm (sorry said it was an 85 earlier). Self arresting is easy, it is great for moderate stuff and still ok for the steeps (ie Shuksan pyramid shute). If someone falls it is easy to plunge, and it makes a great anchor/belay if someone does go in. I am kinda glad my partners have long axes, I feel a lot better knowing there is a big anchor holding me. I agree about the poles, they are great for the approach, but once I am on the rope the poles are as worthless as tits on a board. And when on a rope, say, traversing a ridge, I like to have a few points of contact and the longer axe allows for that. As for weight, my axe is around 20oz, and weights less than my 45cm 2nd tool. So again.... personal preference I guess. I just wanted to know if anyone else out there was hauling a long axe, apparently not. I suppose I will be easy to spot on the mountain this weekend! I'm the guy with the big ass axe. but if the ladies ask I can say "I have a bigger tool that specialed."

 

peace

[russ]

I agree about the poles, they are great for the approach, but once I am on the rope the poles are as worthless as tits on a board.

 

Okay, so you like your ice axe longer than most - no problem. But let's clear up this "tits on a board" thing - idioms

[graupel]

A valid reason for an axe that doesn't have to be short is your typical glacier slog. For this use, having it be able to reach the ground (on whatever angle you choose to use it) helps give some stability when you are tired. It would be very frustrating to have an axe that is super short and have to carry it in the hand yet never get to touch the ground.

 

The premise here is that if you are on a glacier and roped, your ability to stop not only affects you, but your partners that you are roped to. For that reason, when you want to safeguard in crevassed terrain, a ski pole even if it has a whippet is not sufficient for a self-arrest with more force. A ski pole also isn't adequate for constructing a snow anchor either.

 

Most of the time a 65cm works well enough. Those that say to bring a 50cm, are you really saving weight if you then have to bring ski poles and a picket to achieve the same set of uses as one ice axe that is not as short?

[eric8]

I have had your standard 70cm ice axe for awhile but find my self wishing more and more that i had a shorter/lighter one. So when your doing a rock with a glacier at the base it won't get in the away as much on route.

[johndavidjr]

Here's a good discussion, mostly already touched on in this thread.

 

http://www.promountainsports.com/ice-axes.shtml

 

Chouinard's book on ice & snow written in 1970s said a 70 cm axe was/is nearly always the preferred length for mountaineering, without regard for user's height. I don't remember exactly why, but do remember that it made a good deal of sense. That book, BTW, was the first to systematically emphasize self-belay & related grasp for routine use, also, I think. It remains slightly controversial.

 

Also, it seems to me using axe as cain on steep slope puts one very much at risk of going out of balance & though I'm not much of a snow climber, I do try desperately to plant self belay without ever leaning on ax. Tell me if I'm wrong...

 

 

____

[Blakej]

Your opinion on the from Freedom of the Hills, "axes less than 60 cm long are ice climbing tools, excellent for placements on steep slopes. However, these ice tools are no so good for self arrest. The shorter shafts offer less leverage than a longer ax, and many of the technical pick designs do not lend themselver to self arrest technique." So is the leverage based on your torso length in relation to the ax or the over all length of the ax. If the latter what is the optimum for ice axe arrest?

[K_Y_L_E]

sweet I knew I wasn't insane. Crazy yes but not insane.

thanks all

 

yeah I know russ,

When I was younger I made this mix up. But to me tits on a 2X4 were WAY more worthless , so I figured why change.

[Ryan]

I've got a 70cm Raven Pro, and it has worked wonderfully for me. Not long enough to become a hindrance, and not short enough to be problematic when I need to gain some extra balance. The Pro is light enough as it is, so the length doesn't present much of an issue, regardless of size.

[Mal_Con]

I agree with the 70cm RP great for scrambling and such course I don't do much ice anymore. That and one pole is about all you need cept for waterfalls and such.

[Jason_Martin]

A valid reason for an axe that doesn't have to be short is your typical glacier slog. For this use, having it be able to reach the ground (on whatever angle you choose to use it) helps give some stability when you are tired. It would be very frustrating to have an axe that is super short and have to carry it in the hand yet never get to touch the ground.

 

If your using your axe to lean on when tired, you will often encounter a problem. This is that the axe often gets pushed into the snow and forces you to lean over significantly. Leaning over does not allow a lot of air into the lungs.

 

Some would argue that this is a reason for a long axe... Maybe. But once again, the ski pole will help you to stand up straight and allow the support needed. Standing up straight is very important on high altitude mountains as it allows you to get the most oxygen available.

 

Should you have to self arrest while holding a ski pole, something has oviously gone wrong. You can easily drop the pole in favor of the self arrest position.

 

This particular set-up is extremely common on mountains with real altitude issues.

 

The premise here is that if you are on a glacier and roped, your ability to stop not only affects you, but your partners that you are roped to. For that reason, when you want to safeguard in crevassed terrain, a ski pole even if it has a whippet is not sufficient for a self-arrest with more force. A ski pole also isn't adequate for constructing a snow anchor either.

 

Conditions conditions conditions dictate what is sufficient and what is not sufficient for self arresting a person who has fallen in a crevasse. When the snow is deep a crevasse fall has very little impact on the team at all. I've seen crevasse falls on a two person team where the surface person doesn't even have to go into self arrest before the friction on the lip of the crevasse stops the falling party.

 

On the other hand in icy conditions, I've seen people launched through the air like a ragdoll while taking the load of a person falling into a crevasse while practicing.

 

In snowy conditions on a route like the sulphide glacier it is perfectly appropriate to tie a few butterfly knots in the rope between members of the rope team and then to walk up the glacier using poles. Butterfly knots work extremely well in stopping the rope from continuing down into a crevasse with a person on the other end.

 

I've seen the butterfly knot technique in action many times. It works very well. The problem of course is that the person in the crevasse either has to prusik past knots or the person on the surface will have to haul past knots.

 

As far as making an anchor... You can build a snow anchor out of anything, ski poles included. The most important aspect of an anchor is to back it up with other items.

 

In one experiment in late season snow, we tied a cordellete to a power bar, buried it, work hardened it, and then weighted it. It took four people bouncing on it to blow it out. The conditions were such that this bar would have worked as an anchor.

 

Of course an axe or a picket or a fluke is better for an anchor. I'm not saying you shouldn't carry these things, but instead that a super long axe is not that great. And that a short axe can be used with a pole in certain conditions. I'm also saying that in some conditions, it is also acceptable to keep the axe stowed. As I said above conditions dictate everything...

 

Jason

[IceIceBaby]

65cm what else...

works like a charm