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dberdinka

New Route Ethics in Leavenworth

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Ok, I know I’m kicking a dead horse here but I’ve got to ask. What did I miss?

 

Has the general consensus in the Icicle become that it is reasonable to place bolts next to natural gear placements? Case in point are the new sport routes that have been developed along the base of Icicle Buttress. While I did not climb any of them, one appears to have 3 bolts spaced out along a 10’ crack and a bolt every 4’ beyond that. This route was mentioned recently on this site but I was surprised to see that it still existed. A lot of common TRs also seem to be sprouting a web of bolts.

 

Everyone likes new routes, particularly ones of quality. Furthermore I think most of us enjoy clipping a nice fat bolt. But I would like to think that over-bolted squeeze jobs, particularly bolted cracks, have no place in the Icicle.

 

Everyone knows where Retrosaurus stands on this issue, how about other active climbers in the Leavenworth area? Crack Bolter you seem to have some opinions here. How about Victor , you obviously have an interest in route development here and have put up some fine bolted routes, even fine retro-bolted routes, over the years ( i.e. Bale-Kramer Route, Mr Tremendous, etc.)

 

I’m not trying to start some heinous flame war. But these new routes are obviously a huge shift from past route development. Is this the future? Is there a new consensus on what is reasonable?

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quote:

Originally posted by dberdinka:

Is there a new consensus on what is reasonable?

is there ever a consensous???

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quote:

Originally posted by erik:

is there ever a consensous???

Never on cascadeclimbers.com But if more and more super-bolted (or should I just call them sport?)routes are put up and stay up then consensus by a combination of action/in-action develops. No?

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i do not think there is a consensous in places likes leavenworth. there cannot be. i say this, because it has been developed over many many many years with many parties putting up routes. there are periods in which certain styles prevail.

 

places like smith rocks and other highly managed areas have a perceived consensous. aka govenment oversite....

 

and i actually believe that one of the routes you mention darren has been done with natural gear lead in the 80's and none the less, by a WOMAN!!! and sheeit i cannot even tr it....

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quote:

Originally posted by dberdinka:

...Is this the future?

To a certain degree, I think, yes. A generation of climbers is being brought up, or introduced to climbing, in the relative safety of the climbing gym. Thus, "badass" gym climbers make the move outdoors without the benefit of an education in style and ethics, or with ethics and style jaded by the safe bolt locations on indoor lead climbs. That's my opinion.

 

Climb on...it's fun.

 

Greg

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Bolts next to cracks suck. There how is that for ethics.

 

Funny how ethics change when you get a power drill and things you use to reject as unboltable are suddenly worth bolting. [Roll Eyes]

 

Personally we can all spray all we want but it is the guys out there with crowbars and drills taking action that decide the issue.

 

Otherwise see thread " I admit I am mostly anti bolt" for sum classassassic cc.com spray.

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So far, the best tool I've come across for pulling bolts is a ball joint adjuster and a hammer. Looks like a tuning fork, but wedged at the end of the tongs. Waaaay better than a crowbar. No bolt can resist. They are also a lot more friendly when hanging off your harness. Don't forget glue and grit for the old holes.

 

If anyone has questions on the ethics of that, jst go back to the Beckey guides. I don't have them in front of me so I'll paraphrase: If you aren't up to the challenge, get your skills up and come back later.

 

Translation: bolted cracks suck.

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the ethics around the world have definitely swayed towards the safety first mentality...whether it be due to gyms or the unslaught of discounted rotorhammer drills in tom dick and suzieq's hands remains debateable. The question asked ("Has the general consensus in the Icicle become that it is reasonable to place bolts next to natural gear placements?") definitely weighs heavily on my mind as well. Having floundered and flourished in the dirt and moss encrusted granodiorite crags of Ltown for the last ten years I have definitely always thought the local ethics were if there is a potential RP placement there needs to be NO bolt. As stated in Kramar's Second edition (1991-White) of Leavenworth Rock in the loal ethics section 'drilling a hole in a rock that has existed for eons carries a tremendous responsibility. It will never be the same. But, you can't toprope everything! Most folks who climb here know how to rig protection and use their route-finding abilities. It is unusual to find a bolt next to a reasonable RP placement. One must use restraint and careful consideration before altering our precious finite rocks forever.'

In the Ratings section it mentions 'the great majority of the climbs included in this book are one-pitch affairs where the protection one needs should be apparent from the ground. However, it is advisable to carry a little bit of everything in the bottom of the pack.'

In the newest edition (1996-colorphoto)the amount of words depecting the original local ethics and beliefs of bolting lessened to a few asteriked statements...including the statement 'the local climbing stance has always been "anything goes".'

and 'New routes demand careful consideration. With endless acres of virgin rock available, it seems incredible that people will drill holes to fabricate a pointless 15-foot variation.'

and 'Though many routes in the area are bolt-protected, It is common to follow a line of hangers only to discover you need a camming unit for that little slot invisible from below.'

 

I am completely confused about why bolted cracks (horizontal and vertical) seems to becoming the new "acceptable" thing to do. I guess i can see when the guidebook author states the local climbing stance is "anything goes." However, this is entirely untrue. Myself and others still believe in the old traditional ways....bolts and cracks do not mingle very well...yet when that crack disappears or goes completely sideways and all you as the climbers wants to do is go up higher off the ground into the unknown towards that next crack or the summit, bolts become the only means to protect one from nerveracking face moves where natural gear isn't an option. Whatever the case climbing is dangerous and should always remain that way...otherwise everyone will want to do it and what then will become of access and enviromental impact. I am not trying to be selfish here...i just believe in the traditions of ascent....clean Free climbing...but no worries I won't pull your bolts off the rocks but my friends might. [big Grin][Razz][Wink][laf][big Drink][big Drink][big Drink]

 

[ 06-13-2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Szyjakowski ]

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quote:

Originally posted by jkrueger:

New Ethic. Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron?.

Webster says: Ethic: 1.A principle of right or good conduct, 2.A system or moral values

So a "new ethic", in my view, would mean that a shift in thinking has taken place that would alter the previous (or "old") principle of right or good conduct. This may well be what is taking place with the influx of "sport climbing." Ethics are also geographical; there are style/ethic differences from East Coast to West Coast, for sure.

 

quote:

I had the understanding that ethics at crags were established over time. Things change, and styles come in and out of favor, but to completely disregard an established ethic is, in my opinion, simply disrespectful.

I think ethics only survive if the previous generation passes them onto a new generation of climbers. With floods of kids learning to climb in the gym this seems almost impossible, no? I have a friend who recently took a rock climbing class (don't know where) and I will be interested in what they taught her on ethics and style.

 

Greg [big Drink]

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quote:

Originally posted by jkrueger:

[QBI'm doing my part! On Tuesday I started teaching my 6 year old to place gear. I'd get him into a stance about a foot off the ground, have him place some protection, attach a quickdraw between the placement and his harness, and then spot him as he weighted it. Once he got the hang of it, I couldn't get him to stop! Meanwhile, my 3 year old ran around with a helmet and a loaded gear sling made from a runner thrown over his shoulder.[/QB]

Bitchin'!!! I've got another year before I start that; she's quite the climber already though. I think she could pass the Mountaineer's Scrambling Course as long as there is no written test. [big Grin]

 

Greg

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quote:

Originally posted by jkrueger:

...but it seems that there is no longer a consensus of an established ethic and it is simply turning into a free for all?

That appears to be the case. I'm still curious as to everyones opinion on this.

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Actually, I was hoping for a little flame action there. OK try this.

If you own a drill, you are the problem. You can bolt faster than your nuerons can fire. Think morons! Your irresponsible, wanton bolting only inflames those of us who sometimes think about getting the crowbar out but usually don't.

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If a man cannot climb rock without altering its aesthetics, then that man should not be there.

 

Improve your climbing skill or get out of rockclimbing. Stop bolting.

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quote:

Originally posted by glen:

So far, the best tool I've come across for pulling bolts is a ball joint adjuster

I've got a customized slide hammer, like those used to pull tapered bearings and such. Works great on rawl split shank and the like, but the 5 piece expansion anchors are more of a hassle, gotta disassemble the bolt, fish out sleeve pieces, thread bolt back into the cone, then yank it away. And we haven't even touched on filling holes...

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quote:

Originally posted by Greg W:

[/qb]

I think ethics only survive if the previous generation passes them onto a new generation of climbers. [/QB]

 

I'll be doing my bit for the cause, taking a newborn gym rat out this weekend to teach him to lead cracks for his first day on real rock. Must resist the dark side....

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Most of you knuckleheads make me sad. Did you guys ever hear of the sport of scuba-diving? There are plenty of deep technical wrecks and caves to dive on. You still get the "bragging rights," but it's a little harder to fuck up the oceans. Dennis

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quote:

Originally posted by Greg W:

Originally posted by dberdinka:

[qb] ...Is this the future?

To a certain degree, I think, yes. A generation of climbers is being brought up, or introduced to climbing, in the relative safety of the climbing gym. Thus, "badass" gym climbers make the move outdoors without the benefit of an education in style and ethics, or with ethics and style jaded by the safe bolt locations on indoor lead climbs.

 

and the "knowhow to place gear on lead" this is sad but true ..... very sad

 

[ 06-13-2002, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: wdietsch ]

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"I'm doing my part! On Tuesday I started teaching my 6 year old to place gear. I'd get him into a stance about a foot off the ground, have him place some protection, attach a quickdraw between the placement and his harness, and then spot him as he weighted it. Once he got the hang of it, I couldn't get him to stop! Meanwhile, my 3 year old ran around with a helmet and a loaded gear sling made from a runner thrown over his shoulder."

Cool. Yeah. I gave my 6 yr old a drill and showed her how to set up a 3/8" bolt grid around a crack. She calls it "Daddy's ethics game". We were just over in Leavenworth the other day.

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