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thelawgoddess

Daisy Chains - Yea ... or Nay?

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quote:

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

It is not stronger than the rope... The rope is your life.
[big Drink]
Plus I always climb with 24 inch runners. I can use those for daisies if need be. Daisy chains are a waste of weight IMHO.

umm...well, actually a daisy is stronger than a clove hitch as Bronco mentioned.

 

Charlie Fowler once told me that a clove hitch slips at around 600lbs or so.

 

He doesn't use daisies either, but says that you should definately tie in with a figure 8, not a clove hitch.

 

don't kill me [Razz]

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I clip one of the loops if it's more comfortable to be close to the belay. This sort of adjustability (without having to mess with a buckle or something) is a definite advantage, though I guess you could just knot a sling to make it shorter.

 

Does the daisy loop's bartacking actually work like a mini-screamer? Assuming you only clip *one* of the loops, your biner will just slide up to the next loop if the one you're clipped into blows.

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Not sure...I guess [Confused] never heard of it happening though.

 

Seems like your back would be more screwed than anything else...

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I really don't see anything wrong with using clove hitches on your anchors. I'd use them over a daisychain (however you would use that) anytime. As for the relative slip rating, that will be highly variable. As for using a daisychain as a screamer? No thanks.

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ok lambone you climb with a bunch of tied or sewn daisies cause folwer says. I will lead on my rope [Wink]

 

Clove hitch rules all! The rope is not as prone to tear on sharp rock asd well as stronger for that, eaier to tie in if you know what you are doing and only simplifies things if you are moving faster from my point of view. I have to disagree with mr fowler.

 

Like I recommended just climb with 24 inch runners and use them if need be. I dont use any chalk bag crap that clips in any more after watching danimal need one on Wildcat crack and using it. Make your chalk bag holder a useful tool.......

 

[ 05-23-2002, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Cpt.Caveman ]

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Like I said, Fowler doesn't use daisies, he ties straight in with the rope.

 

A while back the AMGA did a test on knot strength. They found that the figure 8 was much stronger than a clove hitch when tieing into the anchor.

 

You use what you want, I'm just relaying the facts.

 

I looked for info on the AMGA page, but could only come up with this: chord strength study

 

You can disagree with Charlie, but just remember, he's been guiding for 25 years, and seen some shit. Now he tests prospective AMGA guides in the field. Plus, he's a nice guy...

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quote:

Originally posted by Lambone:

quote:

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

It is not stronger than the rope... The rope is your life.
[big Drink]
Plus I always climb with 24 inch runners. I can use those for daisies if need be. Daisy chains are a waste of weight IMHO.

umm...well, actually a daisy is stronger than a clove hitch as Bronco mentioned.

 

Charlie Fowler once told me that a clove hitch slips at around 600lbs or so.

 

He doesn't use daisies either, but says that you should definately tie in with a figure 8, not a clove hitch.

 

don't kill me
[Razz]
I'm way pro clove hitch. Let me put it this way.

 

Part of what tree guys do is drop very heavy objects (big old logs) and expect a knotted rope to catch them. The stuff we drop falls as far as most lead falls. The ropes we use are much more static than rock climbing ropes. The weight of what we expect the rope to catch is a lot more than most people weigh.

 

Everybody I know in the industry uses either a clove hitch or, for really heavy stuff, a modified version of a clove hitch.

 

If you don't believe me look in a rigging hand book. figure 8s and any knot with a bite in it only hold about 50% of the strength of the rope, but a clove hitch holds about 100% of the strength of the rope.

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I like the daisy and clove-hitched rope combo because both are easily adjustable for length AND it gives you redundancy in your connection to the anchor.

 

Sure, the rope is enough--but I like the redundancy because it's all too easy to accidently unclip the wrong person at the belay if you're both tied into just the rope. I've seen it happen more than once where the leader who's ready to climb the next pitch accidently unclips the belayer from the anchor instead of themselves. Takes two seconds. Two points of connection to the anchor--especially when one is a uniquely colored daisy--eliminates this easy way to die.

 

While it might be unnecessary, having two redundant, adjustable connections to the anchor is nice.

 

Redundancy when it comes to anchors it good.

 

Am I being redundant enough yet? [Roll Eyes]

 

[ 05-23-2002, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Uncle Tricky ]

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I've never climbed with a daisy chain and can't recall ever roping-up with anyone who uses them as the stuff I've already got seems to do the job.

 

I do use the clove hitch-though when ice climbing with double ropes - one hitch to a locker on each screw unless the conditions warrant tying into something more complicated.

 

And in my contribution to thread creep/weenyhood...

[sleep][sleep][sleep][sleep][sleep][sleep]

 

I think that Charlie Fowler probably speaks with authority on any topic related to climbing, but I can swear that I heard that the AMGA was actually in favor of their use as their strength is sufficient for the application and, as an added bonus, they can be adjusted without dismantling the anchor. I've also heard that on a clove hitch in which the non-loading end is attached to something (a harness, for example) and loosens under load it'll eventually cinch-down again when the tension betwenn the loading end and your harness is sufficient. Could be complete crap but that's what I heard and it seems to make sense.

Couldn't find anything more substantial out there, but did find this info on Tom Moyer's web-site.

 

I'm not sure what his qualifications are, but here's his site http://www.xmission.com/%7Etmoyer/testing/ and one result of pull-testing a clove hitch to failure:

 

"11/23 Test #6

 

Pull a clove hitch to failure. The clove hitch was tied around the shackle on the load cell. The other end of the rope was tied with a figure eight on a bight. New 11 mm Blue Water Rope was used.

 

Result: Material failure at the clove hitch at 5110 lbs.

 

Discussion: The clove hitch did not slip! We were all very surprised at this. Before drawing any further conclusions, I would like to test this again - on a carabiner instead of the shackle. I suspect the rough surface of the shackle added extra friction to the knot."

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If that's true, what is the logic behind the tech tables in my latest BD catalog?

 

Strongest rope is their 9.4 stinger II at 8.2kN

 

Strongest daisy chain is the spectra at 19 kN

 

I see the Freedom of the hills is rating the knot strength of the clove hitch at 60%. This makes an even more significant differenc between using the rope vs daisy to anchor with.

 

I agree with Alpine K on the clove hitch being the riggers choice though, fast, efficent. And at the same time also acknowledge the clove hitch has been used for years with great success but, so was the swami belt. [Razz]

 

[ 05-24-2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Bronco ]

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I like daisies and any of you guys that say you like daisy can come down to Walla walla anytime! [Wink]

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If you're going to start comparing strengths it helps to keep to one system of measurement. I recommend kN. [Razz]

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not sure if this has been brought up, but the weakness of daisies is not the tensil strength but the fact that they are not dynamic and consequently exert a huge force on the anchor or your body. if you are clipped to an anchor at or feet and take a fall you end up taking a factor 2 fall and the resulting stresses on the system. (at least this is what i think i read by something by petzl). you also never want to clip two loops because the you are only on the stitching between the loops. if you clip one loop you are on a bar tacked runner.

 

that said my vote is: i always tie off on a clove. but i keep a daisy ready on my harness for 1) setting up rapels sometimes and 2) unfucking the rope and 3) reserve tank runner / anchor material.

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quote:

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

Bronco silly the swami and clove hitches are a little different. Nice try
[laf]

 

Daisy dukes
[big Grin]
!!

while they are obvioulsy different, they are similar in that they are outdated by safer stronger gear and techniques.

 

YOU WILL DIE IF YOU USE THE ROPE TO ANCHOR IN! [Eek!]

 

what I meant to say is, I am so ready for the weekend [big Drink]

 

[ 05-24-2002, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: Bronco ]

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I took a factor-1.5 static fall on a tied off pin stack once, with a daisy (from about 1.5 feet above stack to 3 feet below) and everything held. Even my sphincter.... [Eek!]

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If you're really worrying about your rope ripping in half at the clove hitches you've got some big problems.

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quote:

Originally posted by iain:

If you're really worrying about your rope ripping in half at the clove hitches you've got some big problems.

Tell me about it! [big Drink]

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The law Goddess wants a little pole. ruddersbox only equipped with a big pole. He can not offer any assitance, sorry...

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quote:

Originally posted by Bronco:

If that's true, what is the logic behind the tech tables in my latest BD catalog?

 

Strongest rope is their 9.4 stinger II at 8.2kN

 


Isn't that 8.2kN rating the maximum force that the rope will exert on the system during a fall rather than the maximum tensile strength of the rope?

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