REI's Climbing department

[jules]

In spite of my expectation of much spray and flaming, I wish to pose some questions to you. A good friend of mine, an avid mountaineer and skilled climber, currently gained a position within our beloved company (it's a great place to work, no matter what dissenters think about how we run our business) to influence the direction of our climbing department. He asked that I get some feedback on the following:

What do you think REI climbing dept. (mainly in Seattle, Redmond, and online) does well? What don't we do well?

How can we add authenticity to the dept.?

How do we meet/miss meeting your needs?

Who do you think is our core customer (in the climbing dept)? Are you a part of that group?

Any other comments?

Thanks for responding, go ahead and post a reply or email me. Have fun!jules

[ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: jules ]

[erik]

r.e.&i sells climbing gear????? huh....never knew that.............

[slothrop]

REI's climbing gear section would be greatly improved if they had competent people working there. Not some of the time, but all of the time. A simple example: I went looking for cord to sling a hex with and no one could help me. The fella who was there didn't know what Gemini was and didn't know what to recommend instead. I had just come from Feathered Friends, who were all out of the techie 5mm cord I needed, but could talk with me at length about what the right stuff to use was. If I'm buying gear from someone, I expect them to know as much or more about it than I do.

[erik]

actually, last time i was at the death star a couple years ago..a non-fit person....had this person ever even been climbing????

actual product knowledge and the use of those products is what needs to be in place...i mean i can read what the catalogs sez and repaeat it, trying to sound intelligent and repeating the speel that the reps have coming out their mouth is marketing....and not real world applications...

your core customer group i would imagine is the mnteers getting thier discount.....

i also think that r.e&i needs to seperate itself from the a.r.c. and the nw forest pass.......

also the fact that the co-op is dead taints it ewven worse.....how come one can only vote for like 1 new board member and six old ones??? do these people amke money for thier time and effort....probably....and who pays more...i think lobbyist taking these fools out to show them trail improvments and what not after a nite on the town for free......

i woud shop there if i had a gun to me head, but then again that guy with the gun would never get past the metal detectors......

[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: erik ]

[rodeo]

Not enough selection when it comes to rock shoes.

No diversity across brand names in protection equipment, such as cams, nuts, etc.

The same can be said for men's climbing apparel,(That thread created last week or so.) snow and ice equipment, (crampons, ice axes/tools and screws) and even ice climbing boots as well.

(--Climb on,,,

[jules]

Great feedback, guys!!

Thanks, keep it coming......

[willstrickland]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jules:

What do you think REI climbing dept. (mainly in Seattle, Redmond, and online) does well?

Not much

What don't we do well?

Stock enough variety, give good advice, care for the equipment (i.e. you don't leave ropes that you plan to sell in full-on lighting not knowing how long they will be there before they sell), provide closeout gear (not REI couldn't sell it, but the manufcaturer changed color/model/etc), have great prices (uh wasn't the whole idea behind this co-op to get cheap climbing gear from Europe by using collective buying power...10% back is not utilizing that power)

How can we add authenticity to the dept.?

Hire people who know what the hell they're talking about. Carry a "real" selection of climbing gear...REI is the biggest store carrying climbing goods with the weakest selection of those goods. Climbmax has more selection in a store the size of an apartment.

How do we meet/miss meeting your needs?

Oooh, this could be a can of worms. You don't meet my needs because my needs are two: 1. stock a wide variety of gear and 2. Use the co-op power to get me deals at slightly above wholesale. You say admin, I say no marketing, you say overhead, I say no stupid f&@%$ glossy mail-out catalogs. The co-op is lost, it has reached the state of a typical department type store. When "profit margins" and things of that ilk influence decision making, the NON-PROFIT co-op is screwed. I've actually thought about starting a climbers' co-op myself to return to what REI used to be. Of course the manufacturers would probably have none of it, but I have my ways.

Who do you think is our core customer (in the cimbing dept)? Are you a part of that group?

Youth starting out needing the basic get-up (harness/shoes/belay device/etc) and the yuppster sport climbers. No, I am not a part of those groups.

Any other comments?

Yeah, the spirit of the co-op is lost. I still like the fact that I can walk in there and have a 90% chance of leaving with what I came for as long as it's not CLIMBING gear. It's one-stop camp shopping, and that's not bad, but the focus on apparrel, and non-technical apparel to be specific is a joke. In my mind "Recreational Equipment Inc" does not equal "Leisure Clothing Ltd"

---

Not trying to be caustic in my statements above Jules, but I think the "flagship" store concept and all the "gee whiz" crap that went in it was a signal of the end. REI is solidly on the road that LL Bean and Eddie Bauer took. Just my $0.02

[lizard_brain]

Hire some people that know something about climbing.

I've been there a few times and they either didn't have what I wanted, or knew nothing about the brand I was asking for - didn't even know they existed - and they were major brands.

On the rare occasion that I am buying climbing gear there, I know what I want before I go and ask no questions about it, because I have no confidence in the knowledge of the staff. But I do buy things there - mostly when I can't find it at ProMountain.

By the way, why didn't your friend post this himself?

[Country_Jake]

Rodeo has go a piont here... If your going to be an out door sports equitment dealer, and climbing is one of the sports, then carry the gear... even online you would think that there would be more solection, but there isn't... I don't know about up in seattle but the REI in Eugene, you stand at the counter for a half hour waiting for someone to help you, but no one does because you might ask them a question that they don't know the answer to... If they don't climb then don't put them in the climbing section of the store...

[moonchild]

From what I understand, employees aren't paid much more than minimum wage. It's unlikely to have an expert at anything for such low pay. So, I guess my suggestion would be quite simply to pay higher wages so you can have the employees with the skill, knowledge, and experience necessary. And if they don't already have the expertise - train them. And I think they must be a climber if they are to work in the climbing department. It's particularly important where safety often depends on the appropriate gear.

[jules]

Originally posted by willstrickland:[QB]

Not trying to be caustic in my statements above Jules

No problem with your remarks, will, we're looking for feedback that is real, not diluted because we only asked people that know us and don't want to risk offending us.

lizard, I'm not sure why he didn't post himself, other than he knows I hang wit ya'all from time to time, and this is my favorite website in the whole world.

[jules]

OK, another question:

Do you think that the assortment is good in ANY of the categories (check out rei.com)?

[Country_Jake]

Yeh, if you wont to buy black diamond gear...

[Bronco]

I wouldn't buy stuff off of the REI regular website even if it is on sale because paying sales tax and shipping typically makes up for the "sale items". It is much cheaper to buy gear from other websites offering discounts, no sales tax and flat-rate sub $5.00 shipping.

There is a guy (Jeff?)who works at the Lynnwood REI climbing dept. who seems to know his stuff pretty good, but they are typically out of stock or limited to more expensive brands on any popular items, (24" runners, reverso, yellow alien, wiregate biners, etc.) Either that or I have amazingly bad timing which is not unrealitic at all.

[erik]

ANOTHER thing is the fact that r.e&i canned all(?) their u.s.(note local) manufacturing.....to save more money....wheres the savings for the consumer????? this is not an action of a co-op but a bidness....and i liked the fact that it was such a small article that you had to have your grandma find it on her daily scouring of the paper......

[goatboy]

Funny story about REI climbing dept. True story.

My friend Robes went to REI and was up in the maps/books section when he saw Beckey, or someone he thought was Beckey. The Beckey character had been gazing at the maps when he gave some furtive glances and headed straight for the exit, buying nothing.

The clincher: He was wearing penny loafers.

So in an attempt to ascertain whether or not it was a Beckey-sighting, Robes went to the climbing dept. and asked the fellow behind the desk if he had perhaps seen Beckey there that day.

The fellow said, "Who's Becky? Does she work here?"

Robes: "No, Fred Beckey."

Still no sign of recognition.

Robes: "You know, the guy who has done first ascents all over the Cascades?"

REI dude: "I'm from California."

Robes: "He's also done first ascents all over the Sierras, Baja . . . you Really never heard of Fred Beckey????"

REI dude (getting pissed off now): "Look man, I DON'T KNOW WHO HE IS!" and he storms off.

Robes goes up to the other dude behind the counter and asks him what's up with the first dude.

Second REI DUDE (getting defensive of First Dude): "Look, man, not everyone is from Seattle, you know."

Funny shit.

Question for the cascade climbers: How about it? Would Beckey be seen in the maps dept. wearing penny loafers????

[ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: goatboy ]

[specialed]

I think its unrealistic to expect outdoor retail salespeople to know everything about every product and have experience with it. Why would you rely on someone who is getting paid to sell you something for unbiased advice on a product anyway? Unless you're a gumby you should be able to figure out what you want to buy by doing your own research, using common sense, and asking climber friends, etc. I worked in outdoor retail for 1.5 years and I'd say about 95% of everyting I told customers was bullshit that they either wanted to hear or could have figured out themselves. The internet has made retail obsolete for lots of climbing gear anyway.

[offwidthclimber]

What do you think REI climbing dept. (mainly in Seattle, Redmond, and online) does well? What don't we do well?

The best feature of rei climbing is the occasional deal i score on rei-outlet.com

What isn't done well is the selection and stock on hand in the retail locations- mainly the flagship store.

How can we add authenticity to the dept.?

As mentioned by others, hire some people who know what they're selling. Because of this, I never go to REI to purchase something I don't know about, climbing or not.

How do we meet/miss meeting your needs?

As mentioned previously, the lack of stock and selection has been a let down. Seriously, REI has the resource and coin to create a top-notch climbing selection if they wanted to.

Who do you think is our core customer (in the cimbing dept)? Are you a part of that group?

Mainly newbies/gumbies or people who are settling for REI because the other gear store is closed, or there isn't one in their area. I'm not a part of this group, except for the "settling for REI" thing when I want to impulse buy and the other shops are closed.

Any other comments?

The flagship store blows. I lived walking distance from that sucka for 6 months. I don't know how many times I went there for something simple like a fuel canister or piece of clothing or pair of climbing shoes only to find out the item was either out of stock, no correct sizes left or out of the color I wanted.

For Christ's sake. This is the flagship store to show off the might of the REI empire, right? Maybe they could keep some friggin' stock in hand. I mean, shit, if there's one store REI should make sure has tons of inventory, it should be that one. I guess Gore-tex rain rooms, cafes and mountain biking trails are more important than actually stocking GEAR - the stuff people come for. It feels like "REI, the ultimate urban experience!" not "REI the store where people buy shit" around there. What's next, charging for admission?

Basically, after a couple times of not finding something simple, I made sure to always hit Feathered Friends first and only settle for REI if I couldn't find it elsewhere.

Perhaps the funniest thing I ever saw at the flagship store was at the climbing pinnacle. It was a Saturday and there were a fair number of people wanting to climb. I thought, what the hell. I've got a membership. I'll cruise up for free and take in the view before lowering off. Anyway, upon going to the climbing pinnacle desk, I find out it's going to be a 3 hour wait. Needless to say, I wasn't THAT interested. And the kicker is that they were handing out flashing buzzers like you get while waiting at a restraunt. Hell, pretty good way to get people to mill around the place and buy stuff for an hour or three.

Anyway, REI is a massive corporation, and I imagine there is no way in hell it will ever get back to the roots. That's what new co-ops are for. It's called evolution.

Peace.

[CascadeClimber]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jules:

OK, another question:

Do you think that the assortment is good in ANY of the categories (check out rei.com)?

---

Yes. They have an excellent selection of casual wear, especially over-priced imported fleece of all shape and color. I also like the holiday candles and the collapsable dog dishes, which are, of course, the 11th and 12th essentials on any serious climb.

Please don't confuse selection with availability. Over and over in recent years I've heard, "Oh, yeah, we don't have any of those in the store, but we have, lessee, 9436 in the Kent warehouse." Once I went in to buy a Trango Pyramid only to discover that the FLAGSHIP STORE had not a single belay device of any kind! Stock the gear in the stores!!!

Will said it best: Get back to being a source of a full selection of high quality climbing equipment at excellent prices. If they do that I don't care how much fleece they carry.

The current leadership seems to have confused "biggering" with "bettering".

[Al_Pine]

I have a question for you Jules. Perhaps you know nothing of this, but I have heard that REI has used its buying power to force gear manufacturers to not allow their gear to be sold at discount.

Is there any truth in this? If so there must be some justification. What is it? If it is the truth it certainly goes against the original mission of the COOP.

[willstrickland]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jules:

Do you think that the assortment is good in ANY of the categories?

---

Very lacking in most catagories (especially Ice tools, axes, cramps). Those categories which are better I've noted below along with my perception of the deficiencies in these.

1. Non-lock crabs has OK selection, but although they have OP, they don't have the two lightest models of OP (JC and the Doval)

2. Harness selection is OK, would be nice to see Yates in there.

3. Shoes: Lots of models, but no Anasazis velcro or lace up? This is one of the most popualr shoes on the planet (although I don't use them). No Newtons? No Scarpas at all?

4.Climbing packs has 7 models, only one of which I'd actually use for climbing.

5. Helmet selection: No problems I see

Finally, the leather ice/mtneering boot selection is pitiful.

[mattp]

Stock seems to be a recurrent problem. They always seem to be out of ice screws during ice climbing season, and short on aliens or something in the Spring. I asked somebody about this once, and they said it is because the re-ordering is done when the available stock runs low, and is not triggered by the change of the seasons or any other consideration of current and ongoing climbing needs. It would be easy to anticipate that sometime this spring there will be a rush on rock climbing gear (when the weather starts getting nice, and particularly if that happens to coincide with Spring break at the UW), but they don't stock up in advance of such a rush but only order in response to one.

Knowledgeable sales staff would be a plus, but more important to me is to have helpful sales staff. REI salespeople have mostly tried to be helpful to me even when they didn't know what they were talking about, such as when they called around to all the other stores to find the left handed ascender I was looking for (a certain Mountaineers instructor some years back had told his students all to go out and buy a single right handed one that I believe was to be used for crevasse rescue).

[Richard_Pumpington]

I too worked at REI several years ago and it is a

frustrating place to work, for several reasons. 1)

they only carry a small assortment of climbing gear

(except the flagship stores and Anchorage); this

assortment is fine for total beginners, or for people

buying gifts 2)they don't pay enough to keep knowledgeable

people to stick around(that's why I left), which is

why you get Captain Couch Potatoe talking out his

ass about gear 3) they're more interested in selling

crap like mountain(skate) boards, scooters,fishing

equipment and becoming the next Eddie Bauer 4) do you

know which competitors they're worried about? Not

Climb Axe, not Mountain Gear, not Marmot Mountain

Works, but stores like G.I. Joes,Gallions and places

that sell basic camping equipment(that should tell

you something). Remember when REI used to make their

own equipment that was worthy of taking on an expedition?

Back in the day of Lloyd Anderson and Jim Whittaker?

The company has been slowly divorcing itself from

its roots and is not going to stop. They were even

talking about selling golf equipment! Real climbers

don't shop at REI anymore, because REI has turned

their back to them!

[chucK]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattp:

Stock seems to be a recurrent problem.

I will echo Matt and just about every poster to this thread on this one. I can see where a small place would not want to have a whole bunch of inventory eating into their available cash and space, but REI??

Knowledgeable sales staff would be a plus, but more important to me is to have helpful sales staff. REI salespeople have mostly tried to be helpful to me even when they didn't know what they were talking about

---

I have found the salespeople to be all over the board. A few were VERY helpful above and beyond the call of duty, doing stuff like emailing me when something came in stock. The majority are clueless but cordial, and at least knew how to work the cash register. A few were surly clueless idiots who couldn't even work the cash register much less know anything about the stuff they seemed to be guarding rather than selling. So, par for the course I guess, not better but not worse than your everyday retail place. However, nowhere close to the kind of service you can get at FEATHERED FRIENDS or PRO MOUNTAIN SPORTS

The biggest beef with the help at REI is the usual non-availability of it anytime there are more than 4 customers in the store. But that is not a problem isolated to the climbing dept.

Even though I have not attended any, I think it's cool the way REI has those free slideshows and seminars and stuff.

Here's my pet peeve with the selection in the climbing deptartment. It is a minor peeve but is probably the only criticism I have that is constructive (i.e. one that could be easily fixed). Whenever I go in there to get a supply of nylon webbing. They have one (if that) spool of earthtone/camoflauge webbing, and multiple spools of purple, red, and neon yellow webbing. Couldn't it be done the other way? Do the crags a favor. Get multiple spools of green, brown, black, or gray stuff and KEEP IT IN STOCK.

[allthumbs]

I'm disappointed in the Lynnwood branch climbing dept. I went there expecting to stock up on some cool climbing biner key rings and funky spandex shorts. All they had were a couple pair of Pranas and some big-ass industrial biners. My keys wouldn't fit. How can I pose without the right shit??