mattp Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Cassidy- I don't know when you started climbing - back in the days when Jedediah Smith first went to Smith Rock, perhaps, but crowds have always been a part of climbing as long as I can remember. Parking at the Gunks was a big problem in 1970. The Climber's Ranch in the Tetons was probably more crowded in the mid '70's than now. Camp 4 in the Valley was also a busy place by the mid ‘70's and you had to "take a number" and wait three days to get onto the Nose route. Yes, there are more climbers now, but they all go to Exit 38 and to Vantage, places where you don't want to go anyway. Enhancing the wilderness? When I was a young pup I camped in shelters that were built all along the Appalacian Trail in the 1940's. The hut at the Bugaboos was built in 1970 or so. Bolt ladders first started appearing in Yosemite when???? Hell - it was David Brower who used bolts and other iron hardward to climb Shiprock in - what was it - the late '40's? Permits and Fees? As long as I've been climbing, these were a part of the climbing experience. The Tetons had climbing permit requirements by the 1960's, I think, and it was even more difficult to get a permit to climb Mount Rainier in the winter in the '70's than it is now -- you had to show up during office hours so they could inspect your gear. The Enchantments permits started when - late ‘70's? Park entrance fees have been collected as long as I can remember. Yes, there are now a new set of fees for parking on logging roads, and Mount Rainier now collects a "rescue fee," but you know what? The major problem that I have with those programs is that they are singling out climbers and hikers to pay fees rather than placing the burden equally on all users and abusers of the park or forest lands. I also believe believe public lands should be maintained for public use (recreational visits are something I think are public use) rather than private profit (e.g. resource extractive industries that are subsidized by the government). More climbers, and specifically more climbers willing to organize and engage in political activities, could be a GOOD thing here. Dubious mountaineering goals? Is it any more "dubious" for Distel to climb some heinous boulder problem using only his shoes and a chalk bag than it was for some Yosemite Valley hardman to spend over 100 days fixing ropes, pounding stove legs into cracks, drilling holes, and dragging a cart up and down El Capitan? Or for expeditions using literally hundreds of porters to carry a military-style expedition to Everest Base and for high altitude sherpas to virtually drag our heroes of yore to the top of the mountain so they could claim the first ascent or the first American ascent or whatever? Guided trips on Everest? So what. I have no issue with that, and I'd also say that back in the historic "golden age" of himalayan climbing it was the old boy's network that got you on an expetition - not talent or drive - and I'm not sure that aspect of the situation is really that different except, perhaps, the "old boys" in the American Alpine Clubhouse in Manhattan have been replaced by advertising folks who work for the North Face. Yes, times have changed and it is not all for the better. But I think you should get out more, and you might find that the world is still OK out there. Really - not all that much has changed. Climbers are having fun, and some of them care about environmental issues or stylistic matters that you believe in while others don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunglehead Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I'm probaly dangerously dating myself, but I actually remember a time when it was almost entirely freaks that climbed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 nice debate, albeit a bit tame. Where's Dwayner when you need him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Dwayner lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Dwayner=Hayduke=E. Abbey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 more climbers = more traffic at squamish= keeps routes clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Uggg.....if one googles 'dwayner', you find the origins of his cc.com name selection. or was this term named for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Of course the Gunks are/were crowded. It has not always been that way here in the Cascades, and I think you know it. Do you really think that hundreds, and I mean hundreds of bolted 5.9/5.10 Leavenworth slabs have improved the experience over there? Have examples of wilderness enhancement always existed to accomodate hikers and Sunday picnic enthusiasts (huts, picnic tables, etc.)? Of course, but is that an American mountaineering tradition? What we're discussing here, in case the focus has softened in your mind, is the growth of the climbing crowd and the associated impacts. Yes, I think the goals of many of today's climbers are dubious, although in some cases, harmless. You've brought up some of the early big-wall tactics as being equally dubious. Guess what, things evolved in the 70's toward clean, low-impact, high-adventure climbing. What has happened since the mid 1980's is certainly a step in the wrong direction, and it is the nature of climbing in the very places you mention (Vantage, Exit 38) which attract these great numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisT Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 lighten up kassidy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 If you really are all about wild adventure lines, bold-leads with sketchy pro, etc, etc, etc - crowds will not deter you from such pursuits no matter how many people there are out there calling themselves climbers. If this is what you were actually up to these days, then I doubt you'd be so upset by the line-ups at the popular roadside crags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 dwyaner just cannot handle the fact that climbing did not stop changing since the 70's/ that is where he is stuck and that is where he will always be, his opinions and abilities reflect that. kinda funny really..... all climbers make an impact irregardless of what aspect of the sport they participate in. to call one form of climbing better then another is stupid. as i can see many forms of impact from all climbers. dwayner doesnt climb anymore but he wishes he did and he sees these kids excedding in weeks and months on what took him his entire climbing carrer. he feels threatend by these people and thus he attmpets to best them with caustic words and ignorant statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 here we go again!! Hang on for the merry go-round!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 im not trying to pick a fight with dwayner, i am just telling him his rhetoric is tiresome and pointless. he only uses his personal reflections on the subject to attempt to belittle other climbers. he should just stick to with what he knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Erik...he will NEVER change his mind...he almost makes it a point to go in reverse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 bunglehead said: I'm probaly dangerously dating myself, but I actually remember a time when it was almost entirely freaks that climbed. I am pretty sure that this holds true for anyone that continues to climb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Erik- I think you too will readily call one form of climbing or one particular climber better or more worthy than another. You argue here in this thread that "it is all good," but if somebody does or says something you perceive as silly or misguided you have no problem mentioning that fact. Cassidy overstates his case, me thinks, if he says it is horribly more crowded in the Cascades these days than back in the golden age of 1978. I also believe he is some kind of nostalgia freak when he suggests that the climber's tactics or goals of yore were any less "dubious" than those of today, but there are some differences in approach today and many of today's climbers are indeed less concerned over the impact of such things as bolting, and many are not as bold when it comes to going somewhere without a satellite phone or bivvy gear. Yes, he ought to get out climbing more and he might see that there are some good things about what is going on - even at his biggest nightmare of a crag Vantage - but like ChrisT said: lighten up (at least until he starts into the "you are all pussies" tirade). I think it's more fun to debate the ideas than to call folks names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 please just burn your toilet paper after wiping your ass when ya shit in the woods. and please dont crap down routes. that shit is just rude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer said: bunglehead said: I'm probaly dangerously dating myself, but I actually remember a time when it was almost entirely freaks that climbed. I am pretty sure that this holds true for anyone that continues to climb yeah f-in right. it is the shishy thing to do nowadays. why else do you think there are all these kiddos wearing biners on their backpacks that i am so willing to remove for them. 10-finga discount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 scott_harpell said: Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer said: bunglehead said: I'm probaly dangerously dating myself, but I actually remember a time when it was almost entirely freaks that climbed. I am pretty sure that this holds true for anyone that continues to climb yeah f-in right. it is the shishy thing to do nowadays. why else do you think there are all these kiddos wearing biners on their backpacks that i am so willing to remove for them. 10-finga discount. Stealing's so new skool... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 and it is sooo a way to build up an aid rack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 no sympathy when your car gets broken into and its all vamooshed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 RuMR said: no sympathy when your car gets broken into and its all vamooshed... dont have one. i am a environmentally conscious person by necessity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurtleSoup Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 lummox said: please just burn your toilet paper after wiping your ass when ya shit in the woods. and please dont crap down routes. that shit is just rude. speaking of that, poop tubes have been a welcome requirement IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 erik said: im not trying to pick a fight with dwayner, i am just telling him his rhetoric is tiresome and pointless. he only uses his personal reflections on the subject to attempt to belittle other climbers. he should just stick to with what he knows. X agrees with Dwayner => X is Dwayner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 JayB said: If you really are all about wild adventure lines, bold-leads with sketchy pro, etc, etc, etc - crowds will not deter you from such pursuits no matter how many people there are out there calling themselves climbers. If this is what you were actually up to these days, then I doubt you'd be so upset by the line-ups at the popular roadside crags. Here's a thread about how popular the sport has become. In my post I quote a statement which suggests that growing numbers are good for the sport, and I simply express my difficulty in understanding how this can be true. I'm not upset, I just think climbing in its current state fails to live up to the ideals of the clean climbing revolution. Our readiness to follow the Europeans down the sportclimbing path nearly two decades ago has resulted in what we currently observe. I would like for just one person to defend the statement that climbing is now somehow better, given all of the developments that have come with the increased popularity of the sport. Instead, we're hearing the same old, tired-out insults (you're bitter, you're over the hill, you feel threatened, you can't climb, you need to get out, blah blah blah), along with about half a dozen incorrect assertions that I am Dwayner reincarnate. How is climbing better, outside of technical advances in gear? How is it more meaningful, more spiritual, more magical .... now that we embrace grid bolting? What can climbing teach us about ourselves that it couldn't previously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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