Soft grades at Squamish: Why?

[AmberBuxom]

E-rock said:

I disagree with the notion that internal consistency at an area is enough (ESPECIALLY when a certain guidebook author is ACTIVELY inflating grades). The point of the Yosemite decimal system is that 5.10a,b,c or d at one area is supposed to feel the same as those same grades somewhere else.

 

i disagree with your disagreement. a guidebook is only a guide.

 

E-rock said:

After climbing with a professional route-setter this weekend, I was keen on his desire to keep the grading accurate with the etablished yosemite decimal system standard, not just what certain people in his neck of the world think that standard is.

 

i think its neato that you can use the word 'keen'.

 

now if you really want to be confused by grading inconsistency then start iceclimbing.

 

but really. who gives a fuck about grade being anything other than a suggestion? and that includes quality ratings too. i give my comments three stars.

[bird]

I may be wrong, but it seems like squamish grades get a little more on par when you start hitting the 11 mark. I haven't lead any 11's there, but I have followed and top roped a few.

[Off_White]

I wouldn't lay soft squamish grading on McLane's doorstep. Most of those climbs E-rock mentioned are much older than his guide, and I don't think he raised their ratings. Squamish, the Smoke Bluffs in particular, has always had a bit of a rep for soft grading on free climbs (at least since I first climbed there in the mid 80's), particularly in the 5.8 to middle 5.10's. I think it is reasonably consistent, and much of the climbing is flat out wonderful, so I was never troubled by a little feel-good gimme on the numbers. If he wanted to correct it, I think McLane would have to do some wholesale downrating of routes, most of which are not of his creation, and it would be at least as controversial as the present situation.

[jefffski]

i understand e-rock wants to know how well he climbs so that he can put a number on his ability. but i think he may be missing the point.

 

first of all, have fun. don't worry about the numbers. i've climbed in many places, in the pnw, the gunks and wales all with very different grade standards. all you do is convert your home grade to the local grade, then climb on.

 

so, i onsight 10 a/b's in squish, 8/9's in the gunks and hvs/e1 in wales. it's all the same fun though.

 

second, climbing is sooo different in each place i've been that comparing the grades makes little sense. for instance, vantage is vertical, so the skill there is finding rests. in the gunks there are roofs and the technique is different than the slab or granite cracks of squamish. it's almost like comparing apples and oranges.

 

as well, if i look at climbing only at the level of my hardest grades i might miss some of the beauties at grades that are well within my means.

 

finally, i think that the inconsistency in grades is part of the joy of going to new areas and 'getting used to' the standard. it's like a puzzle that you have to figure out.

[Dru]

there is a route called "Payanoia" at Easter Island craglet in the Smoke Bluffs. real soft and easy for 5.9. Kevin told me he is going to rate it 5.7 in the next guidebook so go do it now!!!

[jshamster]

I'd have to agree with jeffski.

 

It's pretty easy to figure out equivalent grades at different areas, and it's kinda fun.

Even if ya want to push grades ya just do it at different areas.

 

I'm stoked to do a J-tree 10c, and I'm stoked to climb 11a/b in Squish. At Index/Yos it's more like 10a, sometimes 10b.

It's all in the local grading, and especially (I think) in technique required for the type of climbing.

 

climb hard, have fun.

[Dru]

i think only off white has mentioned the variability within areas in other words for instance, Castle Rock and Midnight are hard for Lworthless while Icicle Canyon is soft like pillow.

 

At Squamish, Smoke Bluffs and base of Grand are mostly easy... lower Malemute is hard. ( Brown Ale 5.9, Penguins in Bondage 11a etc). 5.10 sport routes at Cheakamus are soft while 5.10 sport routes (all one of em) at Pet Wall are nails. etc.

 

Josh is hard and soft all at once and mixed together. I went soloing at Indian Cove once and after cruising a bunch of 8s and 9s, got shut TOTALLY down by a chimney described as "4th class" on the Short Wall.

[Distel32]

Sphinx said:

5.10 is supposed to be hard.

 

Depends on how strong you are. There are soooo many people out there who think 12 is easy. There are cc.comers who climb 11b in tevas and skip half the clips

[JayB]

Like who? Skipping clips on 11's wearing flip-flops deserves photographic documentation like the old Sherman 40oz photo!

 

And when are you going to start putting that V6 strength to use on some cracks homie? You should be tearing that shite up!

[Distel32]

haha, I can't mention any names.

 

Working cracks!? I'm going to put some more time into sport right now and see where that goes. Starting this weekend at smith, I'm psyched. I need a ropegun for chain, I've never been on it, and I want to do toxic (never been on it either). you'll be there I hope JayB?

[Cpt.Caveman]

I like climbing good lines. I think the definition is variable.

 

If the grade is easy then who gives a damn about how hard it was\is supposed to be? Pick a line around your level and enjoy. If it's easy then remember the first rule : enjoy.

 

What would split beaver be rated in a place other than squampton?

 

BTW if you are lurking guidebook author of Squampton thank you for a good book. I dont give a damn about the ratings as much as I care where to find the good climbs.

 

The SW BC select book is nicely laid out too. Excellent work IMHO.

 

But you should have left all of Dru's climbs out- they are all choss

[Paul_detrick]

I agree with most of the posts i've seen, the fun for me is going somewhere new and jumping on climbs to see what I think. Im old so I don't have to worry about grades, but I do like them all to be close to the same. Its all about fun for me.

[TimL]

Forget grades just go out and climb. But I'll go on a rant just for the sake of it.

 

Most Squamish grades feel 2-3 letter grades easier at least. But its nice to have a "feel good about yourself" crag.

 

If there wasn't easy grades then hard would't feel hard.

 

I agree with Erik. Index, Yo and Smith are were its at least for me. Leavenworth is cool as well.

 

Grades are also subjective to your psychological and physical state. I've fallen on 5.8 before when I clearly was leading much harder. I just wasn't in the mood to climb had a horrable hangover.

 

A couple weeks ago at the base of ROTC when I insisted it felt like 10a my partner looked at me like I was crazy. Too me at that time it felt like 5.10-. Still does now.

 

On a different note, it seems like the newer the climb was established the easier the route. I mean, you really don't ever come away from a route that was estabished years ago and think, "dam thats easy".

 

I think 2 of the best crags in the state are Index and Midnight rock in Leavenworth. Unfortunately, it seems like a fair amount of routes at either place do not receive much traffic because the have the reputation of being sandbagged.

 

 

 

 

 

[matt_m]

I tend to find that criticizing a guidebook because its ratings are "soft" or "stiff" is a waste of time. The reason i say this is that almost universally, for every soft climb you can find a stiff climb in the same area. Anyone played on the first 4 pitches of Dream On on the Apron? I'd say that it's spot on 10d. And what of the down grading of Local Boys Do Good? that got dropped to 10d as well.

I've done Gunks 5.6 routes that put Yosemite 5.6 to shame. Index? thin fingers 11a is always a good beer debate over softness

what of routes changing over time? holds blowing out (steck-salathe) or appearing due to natural weathering? advancement of rubbers? gear? all variables

 

the point is - the variations among areas keep me thinking about my ability as a climber - I consider myself a solid .10 trad climber in the PNW - if i were to go back to NY and start climbing again there i'd start lower and figure it out - knowing areas and how YOU relate to the grades is part of climbing

[Dru]

Kevin Mclane will be producing a new Squamish guidebook specifically for Washington climbers in the near future.

 

Here are some selected grades from it:

 

Diedre 5.0

Exasperator 5.7

Grand Wall 5.9. Split Pillar 5.7+

Freeway 5.10b

University Wall 5.11a

Genius Loci 5.12b

[d542east]

^ I registered because of that post.

[matt_warfield]

Go to Lumpy Ridge, Yosemite, Index, J-Tree and Granite Mountain (AZ). Harsh.

 

Then go to Squamish, E38 and places that may be a little soft.

 

It is all rock climbing and not politics.

 

As far as Squamish, go do the left side of the Split Pillar or free solo Pipeline or do the Grand Wall all free or do University Wall with shoes on opposite feet, which has been done, and please don't whine on the Sword or Perry's lieback on the Grand Wall. Or Freeway. Please just complain about moderates.

 

And of all the guidebooks I have read Mclane's have been the best. He doesn't make up the grades but he does write thorough and entertaining route descriptions.

Edited October 14, 2012 by matt_warfield

[Rad]

Ratings are subjective, but Mountainproject allows climbers to post ratings and so develop an average. This should help smooth out the softies and the sandbags.

[keenwesh]

wow, in 03 I was just a wee lad, still I'll chime in anyway.

 

38 is a fun places to get a bunch of routes in, but whooo-eeee is it soft! endless bliss is rated 10a, but is barely 5.8. Theres some 10a above it, ellies sweet kiss or something, can't be more than 5.7. I've gotten onto "10b" terrain after going the wrong way on criss crossing boltlines when i thought I was doing a 5.8. Fun place to climb, but I kinda ignore grades there, at least at the moderate level, as they really don't mean anything.

 

Little Si though, that is a fun place to fall off stuff!

[matt_warfield]

Also check out Snake, Cruel Shoes going to Grand Wall, and many very good climbers consider the last pitch of Sunblessed as hard. Squamish deserves a break. Don't bitch unless you have done some of the harder grades. Squamish is so much more than Diedre.

 

And I am American. But I will cherish Squamish forever.

Edited October 14, 2012 by matt_warfield

[matt_warfield]

wow, in 03 I was just a wee lad, still I'll chime in anyway.

 

38 is a fun places to get a bunch of routes in, but whooo-eeee is it soft! endless bliss is rated 10a, but is barely 5.8. Theres some 10a above it, ellies sweet kiss or something, can't be more than 5.7. I've gotten onto "10b" terrain after going the wrong way on criss crossing boltlines when i thought I was doing a 5.8. Fun place to climb, but I kinda ignore grades there, at least at the moderate level, as they really don't mean anything.

 

Little Si though, that is a fun place to fall off stuff!

 

Try Whores of Babylon. It took a CO climber to complete the hardest climb in WA. We need to be better perfomers and less whiners and complainers.

[Rad]

38 is a fun places to get a bunch of routes in, but whooo-eeee is it soft! endless bliss is rated 10a, but is barely 5.8. Theres some 10a above it, ellies sweet kiss or something, can't be more than 5.7. I've gotten onto "10b" terrain after going the wrong way on criss crossing boltlines when i thought I was doing a 5.8. Fun place to climb, but I kinda ignore grades there, at least at the moderate level, as they really don't mean anything.

 

Come out to Shangri-La crag at X38 Far Side sometime. You'll find about a dozen high quality routes (yes, I'm biased) in the 5.10-12 range that are more in line with Index LTW than the rest of X38. PM for info and/or tours. I'll work on getting it on Mountainproject this winter.

[keenwesh]

wow, in 03 I was just a wee lad, still I'll chime in anyway.

 

38 is a fun places to get a bunch of routes in, but whooo-eeee is it soft! endless bliss is rated 10a, but is barely 5.8. Theres some 10a above it, ellies sweet kiss or something, can't be more than 5.7. I've gotten onto "10b" terrain after going the wrong way on criss crossing boltlines when i thought I was doing a 5.8. Fun place to climb, but I kinda ignore grades there, at least at the moderate level, as they really don't mean anything.

 

 

Little Si though, that is a fun place to fall off stuff!

 

Try Whores of Babylon. It took a CO climber to complete the hardest climb in WA. We need to be better perfomers and less whiners and complainers.

 

I watched Jonathan Siegrist climb his route there a while back, 32 is tough, I've only jumped on routes up to 12- there (because I'm a wanker) but I felt like the grades were a lot more spot on than a little ways up the road.

 

As for Squamish being soft, I have fun whenever I climb there and I usually don't have a guidebook!

 

Jangling Ball Wall in the Smoke Bluffs is freakin' hard for 11b.

[TeleRoss]

I know this climber who's onsight limits are 5.12 finger cracks, 5.9 off width, and 5.10 J-Tree slab.

[Rad]

32 is tough, I've only jumped on routes up to 12- there (because I'm a wanker) but I felt like the grades were a lot more spot on than a little ways up the road.

 

I disagree. There are soft 10s at both 32 (Mambo Jambo) and 38 (the two you mentioned).

 

The 11s are pretty consistent between 32 and 38:

At 11a: Primus or Overture or Architect Rally (38) vs Disincarnate (32).

At 11b: Negatherion or Tea Time (38) versus Gold Rush or Little Hitler or Situation Room (32),

At 11c: Canine Patrol (38) and Godflesh (32) are both soft. Giant and the 11c next to Tea Time at Gun Show (38) are more on the mark.

At 11d: I haven't climbed lines at this grade at 32 so won't comment.

At 12a: Culture Shock (38) doesn't feel easier than Bust the Move, Rainy Day Women, or Lay of the Land (an excellent line that deserves more attention) at 32, but that may say more about my lack of stamina than the ratings.

 

But more disturbing to me is that this elitist attitude keeps strong climbers from going to 38. Many crags at 38 have better rock than 32 and there are plenty of hard lines up to mid-12. Don't believe me? Let me take you on a tour or PM me for beta and a list of routes to hit. I'm biased because friends and I have invested effort in developing some of the newer lines and want to see them get more traffic.

 

What bothers me is the implication that softly graded routes are somehow lower quality than ones graded harder. Or that sandbags must be good. That's a load of crap. Whether I call a route 5.9 or 10c doesn't change its quality and it doesn't make me more or less of a badass.

 

The quality of a route doesn't have anything to do with its rating.

 

The only purpose of ratings is to give the onsight leader a sense of what they're getting into and provide some benchmarks to measure our personal progress.

 

Sorry for the rant. You hit a hot button.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Rad