Lame...Cave is now down and out...forever

[jon]

Darryl I'm in.

 

Bob, I've been trying to work with Access Fund since we started the site. I saw this as a great conduit for them to get their message out and get their local membership up, and aid in spreading the word about cleanups. The problem I've found is two fold with them. First is Andy Fitz has done an incredible job, but there is more work to be done then one person could possibly handle so it really looks like nothing has been done. He told me that it would be nice to have a person for each large climbing area in the state and he asked who I would suggest.... and I pointed to Mattp. The second problem is that at the national level they only have an office staff of like 8 people, for the whole country. They more or less told me that there had to be a major event (400+ i think) for someone to talk, and had to be something major to warrant their attention at the national level. I was trying to donate money from our advertising but they would refuse to let me earmark it for local stuff, so it is just sitting waiting for a good cause.

[bunglehead]

And he took those pictures when the light was streaming right into the cave. Usually it looked like bat guano, and if it was in dim conditions the chalk marks were hard to see at all. Fucking Forest Extraction Service. They're so self serving. I hate em.

[Figger_Eight]

jon said:

I've seen lots of white shit like that photo in caves, but it wasn't chalk.

 

Nothing like arguing about bolts in a cave that's located in a middle of a clearcut, from your house made of wood.

 

C'mon Jon...that's not what I'm saying - I didn't mention bolts and you've seen a lot of white shit like that on rocks that was chalk.

 

I don't think closing down areas is the answer, nor do I deny that I clip bolts. However, I do see a disturbing trend where climbers, as a community, feel "no/low-impact" doesn't apply to them. That's all.

 

Is it beer-thirty yet?

[gapertimmy]

count me in for any action.

 

i'd be more than happy to spearhead stuff down here in oregon. and would even make the long trip up to wa for some meetings and such.

[glassgowkiss]

 

I don't think closing down areas is the answer, nor do I deny that I clip bolts. However, I do see a disturbing trend where climbers, as a community, feel "no/low-impact" doesn't apply to them. That's all.

 

we all have impact to some degree- you take a shit, don't you? the point is there was a deal, we as climbers kept out end and we were shafted from behind by the other side. hence my ass is still sore, since they did not use vaseline . We were taking to FS way before Lary King started getting involved and till then they did not care. as the matter of fact i haven't seen a single FS employee in these caves for years.

Now I am sure a gate drilled into rock is smaller visual impact then some chalk and few bolts, how is that for a logic?

I did spent substantial number of days in these places, so I am talking from my own experience

[DCramer]

Jon -

 

I just left a voice mail with Andy. I told him about a possible get together and asked what his availability/interest was over the few weeks. I ran into the same problem with the Access Fund and earmarking funds for local use. The good thing is the Access Fund encourages the formation of local groups. David Gunstone and I set a NFP corp to act as a funds holding place. He died in May and the corp is really doing nothing right now. After his death several people have expressed an interest in trying to get a local group together. If we could get a real group together I think the payback would be huge. You are right about this site being a great conduit for access info and local organization. The potential is mind-boggling.

[DCramer]

Jon -

 

I just left a voice mail with Andy. I told him about a possible get together and asked what his availability/interest was over the few weeks. I ran into the same problem with the Access Fund and earmarking funds for local use. The good thing is the Access Fund encourages the formation of local groups. David Gunstone and I set a NFP corp to act as a funds holding place. He died in May and the corp is really doing nothing right now. After his death several people have expressed an interest in trying to get a local group together. If we could get a real group together I think the payback would be huge. You are right about this site being a great conduit for access info and local organization. The potential is mind-boggling.

[gapertimmy]

oh ya, and i'll post some pictures of the current status of the caves sometime this weekend, so every one can see what we are talking about.

[Figger_Eight]

but you can agree withan absurd arbitrary decission.

 

Yes...arbitrary knee jerk decisions are absurd.

 

Closing established climbing areas is absurd.

 

I think barring a low impact user group from any public land in the name of preservation is suspect, especially if an opposing lobby seems to have the land manager's favor (there are still trails where horses can stomp and shit all they want, but mountain bikes are banned). The problem is climbers are not as low impact as they once were.

 

 

 

[bunglehead]

You can count me in too. I'd be more than happy to drive over to Bend for a meeting. I spent a lot of time in those caves, and I love Central Oregon. Anything I can do to help with fair access, I will.

[jon]

Figure Eight, my post wasn't directed at you, just a general comment.

 

I guess what my point was that you have to be realistic about impacts on the environment and how you contribute. What is worse, the bolt and chalk or the clear cut. You are contributing to both whether you realize it or not. Bolting should be an issue resolved and managed by climbers and not the FS. The FS is responsible for a level of destructive environmental impact and land mismanagement that they have no business dealing with something where there is no environmental impact besides aesthetics. I'm not saying there isn't an impact from a bolt, but they don't pollute streams and such, they just permantly (at least while we grace the planet) change the aesthetics of the rock.

 

You have to pick your fights here people. I personally think there are more important issues that will have much more of a lasting impact on our future then any bolt will, namely the Fee Demonstration program and allowing private industry into our publically owned lands. What good does arguing about a bolt on a specific route matter if the crag was demolished while being mined or clear cutted?

[Figger_Eight]

jon said:

You have to pick your fights here people. I personally think there are more important issues that will have much more of a lasting impact on our future then any bolt will, namely the Fee Demonstration program and allowing private industry into our publically owned lands. What good does arguing about a bolt on a specific route matter if the crag was demolished while being minded or clear cutted?

 

[glassgowkiss]

John I agree 100%. This is exacly about picking the right fight. The way i see it there is a major flaw with Access Fund policy, They still think there is going to be a major battle on access. FS/NPS/ SPS knows they are not going to win a major battle on many fronts. That's why they slowly chip away, one by one, area after area. I think the tragedy is that the biggest places, like Yosemite, Gunks and such will be left out. There is no threat to Smith ( I know they were trying to fine Watts in 97). But everything else in between will be gone, Caves, Cave rock, bouldering in N Carolina and many others. Then they will say- you have places to climb.....

Nost effected areas are these rare gems, where a few people were venturing. Hidden Forest was the greatest place in N America. End even though there were bolts, the climbing was adventorous, often run- out, after a few hours of climbing you felt like you were in a bar brawl- all scraped up and dead tired.

FS should not tell us how to protect while climbing. They know nothing about it. You are right, we might squable aver ethics. The truth is it's all about estetics. The real impact are open pit mining, clearcuts, millions of miles of roads cut through the forest areas.

[JayB]

mattp said:

Dwayner,

I'm sorry to say this, but I think perhaps you should be banned from this site temporarily. You need to figure out that even your fans are by now probably tired of you pathetic grandstanding, and you constant attempt to antagonize is not unlike some of the juvenile antics that have gotten others shut down.

 

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

No one can discredit some of the positions he believes in as effectively has he can! No banning!!!!!!!!!

 

I would however be in favor of giving the guy his own PERMANENT ANTI-BOLTING TIRADE FORUM to serve as a vehicle to give his viewpoints on this topic even more exposure.

[JayB]

Oh - and count me in for the meeting as well.

[AlpineK]

Dwayner. Your diatribes on bolts are so predictable. We all know how you feel, and after 3 years of reading you online we all know you will never compromise.

 

You haven't convinced anyone to your side

 

Give it a rest. I'm not into banning you, but you're just crying out to be put down.

[billcoe]

There are some great points throughout the thread here. Infighting doesn't help the matter though. I'd lke to help out too. I wish I was an attorney: Gapertimmy has some great points and the "land managers" should be put to the wood. Frankly, it may be time to start attacking the forest service generally. They are wasting money like its not even there own. They were organized to cut down the forests. They did it. Now that there is a severe shortage of trees due to several factors (including overcutting) they are searching for a mission. Most of them need to find real jobs and learn to be productive members of society again IMO. I'm tired of paying saleries for crap like this cave process. I mean, think how much of our money these pricks spent on this, meetings after meetings after meetings after reports after modified reports after more meetings. And bubba: most of them are making more money than most of us. Do the math: it had to be millions. In the end nobody gets served.

 

Dwayner: Although many of us find lots of points of agreement with you: this seems to me a classic one of those if "they" come and take away your neighbor, then "they" come and take away your friend, and you don't say anything because you don't feel it's your business, eventually then there won't be anybody to help you when "they" come to take you away. I think that may be a reason you are drawing some big fire on it.

 

Bolts bring people: true, and people bring asswipes who will close down your climbing area: also true, but that is probably true bolts in it or not.

 

To those of you who work in the FS, including one of my brothers and a climbing partner, it's time we shut this kind of wasteful crap down. Instead of worrying over the process, the process itself should be challenged. Don't even get me started about the $30,000 per fish (thats correct) Bonneville power is paying for salmon RIGHT NOW, via water release. I'm sorry to say that it appears only a great depression can re-align people attitudes. I feel like a salmon swimming upstream.

 

Stop the madness. Ban the Forest Service and let them go to work again for a living.

[cj001f]

What don't you understand about the relationship between climbing area being closed with 400 bolts being removed....and the practice that contributes to the problem. Is it really a big mystery?

If it's access you're concerned about....you guys need to do the self-reflection to see how your behavior might contribute to "the Man's" suspicions. If you can convince the powers that those sport-climbs are legitimate....than do it. Although they might get a different side of the story from other of folks.

 

 

 

Dwayner-

If you've read anything about Castle Rock (hardly fucking likely considering how quickly you chimed in when knowing absolutely positively nothing about Rocky Butte) you'd know that the Washoe Indians conside Castle Rock a sacred site, and conside any "unapproved" visitation to be a sacriledge - that really has little to do with bolting, now doesn't it?

[pope]

Peter_Puget said:

To the extent Dwayner continually comments in a robotic non-responsive manner he is not participating in any discussion.

PP

 

Nothing better defines the word "robotic" by example than the perfunctory way in which you employ the word "nonresponsive" to anybody who won't give YOU and your disjoint logic the time of day.

[pope]

mattp said:

Dwayner,

I'm sorry to say this, but I think perhaps you should be banned from this site temporarily. You need to figure out that even your fans are by now probably tired of you pathetic grandstanding, and you constant attempt to antagonize is not unlike some of the juvenile antics that have gotten others shut down.

 

As a fellow liberal, I'm a little surprised by your pragmatic interpretation of the 1st Amendment. Apparently, what you desire for this board is the realization of a forum in which like-minded people can spend the day agreeing with each other. Just so long as nobody disagrees with your opinion or with the majority viewpoint, as long as they are capable of contributing to the montone.....then and only then do you, MattP, support the free and unrestricted exchange of ideas.

 

My advice to the man for whom I coined the phrase "effortlessly cool" ? On those days when being cool DOES require a little effort......it's still worth the effort.

 

If you exclude Dwayner from these discussions, you might wish to change the name of the site to CASCADESPORTCLIMBERS.COM

 

Good night, gentlemen.

[cracked]

pope said:

mattp said:

Dwayner,

I'm sorry to say this, but I think perhaps you should be banned from this site temporarily. You need to figure out that even your fans are by now probably tired of you pathetic grandstanding, and you constant attempt to antagonize is not unlike some of the juvenile antics that have gotten others shut down.

 

As a fellow liberal, I'm a little surprised by your pragmatic interpretation of the 1st Amendment. Apparently, what you desire for this board is the realization of a forum in which like-minded people can spend the day agreeing with each other. Just so long as nobody disagrees with your opinion or with the majority viewpoint, as long as they are capable of contributing to the montone.....then and only then do you, MattP, support the free and unrestricted exchange of ideas.

 

My advice to the man for whom I coined the phrase "effortlessly cool" ? On those days when being cool DOES require a little effort......it's still worth the effort.

 

If you exclude Dwayner from these discussions, you might wish to change the name of the site to CASCADESPORTCLIMBERS.COM

 

Good night, gentlemen.

Right, Dwayner's the only trad who posts here. Buy a clue.

[pope]

He's one of the few who regularly represents a traditional viewpoint. You're welcome to join him.

[mattp]

Pope-

I have no interest in stifling conflicting points of view, nor in stifling Dwayner. I enjoy the debate, whether it is about saving grams in your pack, the Iraq war, or bolting practices. Not only do I enjoy it, but my views on these topics have changed after I've been able to exchange some thoughtful discussion with other members of this site who hold viewpoints I wouldn't encounter elsewhere, except perhaps on some bumper sticker or something. However, all of our ability to interact is compromised when someone seeks nothing more than to disrupt the discussion and draw attention to themselves.

 

Puget is right on the money when he notes that Dwayner has some robotic obsession so that every time the word "bolt" is mentioned, he fires up the same antagonistic response that may or may not have anything to do with the discussion, and which he cannot defent when questioned on the logic or what he is stating. Are you, too, on Dwayner's "Team Robitic Nonsense," or do you simply have a temporary reading comprehension problem?

 

I have stated, every time we have this discussion, that I believe Dwayner has a point - but it is his method of delivery that I find totally inane. He's a college professor, for god's sake. He must know how to forumlate and present an idea without being antagonistic about it, and how to participate in a discussion in a manner that is intended to promote the exchange and consideration of new information. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask and expect him to be able to make his points without being a complete jerk.

[pope]

mattp said:

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask and expect him to be able to make his points without being a complete jerk.

 

OK. I agree that it is reasonable to ask him to be less abrasive. To expect it? Well, maybe, maybe not. I admit I'm a little biased because I think his contributions and comments about bolt abuse are not only on the mark but also hilarious. Regardless of your interpretation of the maturity of his behavior and the value of his offerings, I think it would be unfortunate to excommunicate him. That sounds too much like the tactics of those who support the Patriot Act, not a sage liberal.

[Figger_Eight]

but it is his method of delivery that I find totally inane

 

Is he held to a higher standard than anyone else on this board? Or is it the content of the discussion that governs how people should behave? It seems to me that all topics here are fair game for any sort of "debating style", EXCEPT for bolting. On any other topic it's okay to fling the shit without restraint, but is this topic CC.Com's golden cow? As soon as the "bolting" topic comes up, staunch ethicists have to play nicey-nice while everyone else gets to tell them to pretty much "shut the fuck up" and "stick it up their ass"?

 

Can he be abrasive? Absolutely, but no more so (and much less than) many of the other regulars. I have not once heard him make reference to anyone's mother, wife or girlfriend, tell anyone to "fuck off and die", nor has he physically threatened anyone.

 

If you apply the same standards to the rest of these characters as you do to Dwayner, there wouldn't be a whole lot of people left here - and it would be a much more boring place.

 

My dos centavos.