Dru Posted June 16, 2003 Posted June 16, 2003 I have also read extensively about hundreds of different climbing areas and have read guidebooks to many, many areas around the country. Where is the GPS record and 3 witnesses for this claim? Quote
Ursa_Eagle Posted June 16, 2003 Posted June 16, 2003 I have also read extensively about hundreds of different climbing areas and have read guidebooks to many, many areas around the country. So now reading constitutes experience? And no, I haven't read all of your replies dave t, they're just too long. Quote
mattp Posted June 16, 2003 Posted June 16, 2003 Dave- I respect your willingness to stick with it here and, depite your defensiveness, it is obvious to me that you have thought about these issues and are trying to do a good job. It sounds to me, too, as if you may realize that you have "overbolted" some climbs or "overdeveloped" some crags compared to what might be some ill-defined mid-point along the spectrum of what different members of the "climbing community" think is acceptable. If that is so, remove some unnecessary bolts or perhaps even an unsightly route or two and patch the holes before you start on your next project. Maintaining good relationships with and between climbers of varying interests and abilities is just as important as maintaining good relationships with the land managers. Thumbs up for sticking with it. Quote
sk Posted June 22, 2003 Posted June 22, 2003 I went up there saterday... it rained and poured and hydrotube was a small waterfall I hate it when that happens. Quote
sk Posted June 23, 2003 Posted June 23, 2003 iain said: seems like it has a fitting name then More so than I would have liked. 2nd time in as many trips that I have been rained or snowed off there when is summer again??? I forget Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted June 24, 2003 Posted June 24, 2003 Any bolt you remove from any of our routes will be replaced with Fixe glue-ins. are you serious!?! WTF? Quote
Fence_Sitter Posted June 24, 2003 Posted June 24, 2003 you forget that I in no way started it are you 6? Quote
j_b Posted June 25, 2003 Posted June 25, 2003 there is very little (if anything) to be learned from leading closely bolted lines over top-roping them. without wanting to sound elistist, if people can't lead a 5.6 slab pitch with bolts more than 5' apart, they are not ready to lead in the outdoors. they should second a while longer, in other words, follow the usual apprenticeship necessary to become a competent leader. apparently dave understands the objective standard for not bolting cracks, yet he fails to see one for how close bolts should be drilled. go figure that one out .... (a clue: said standards are provided by the history of the sport and the practices found in the community) by the way, your bolting climbs with natural protection at smith says a lot about your background and although i recognize that individuals can change, your rationalizations are just not convincing. Quote
gapertimmy Posted June 27, 2003 Posted June 27, 2003 chirp said: Sportclimbing is neither...period. Quote
texplorer Posted June 28, 2003 Posted June 28, 2003 Greetings all, Wow, this post has taken off in the last few weeks. I just got back from a great trip down to the Yos to find that even "Bolter Dave," as I have heard him called, has degraded to posting on our website. I am actually glad to hear his side of the story. I support Dave in his replacement of old and dangerous bolts especially on popular climbs. I am not entirely opposed ot adding bolts to routes if it doesn't change the nature of the climb and is OK'ed with the first ascensionist. Contrary to my trite and brash posts on this website I am very serious when it comes to bolting and of course chopping bolts. I am not an expert on either but over the last few years have developed strong feelings about the bolting issue. I have spoken with many people, beginners to badasses, and am concerned about the balance we must all play with nature, the govt, and other climbers. First of all, I see the rock, especially in wilderness type areas as a very special place. Shortly after I first got into climbing (yes, I started as soley a bolt clipper), I wanted to show everyone out there the beauty and fun that climbing brought to me. I slowly realized, however, that not everyone held these places with the same esteem which I did. I distinctly remember bringing one friend climbing and he remarked that we should bring a boombox out next time and that they should pave the trails up to the climbs. It was then that I realized that there is a balance and certain sacredness that I felt should be obeyed when climbing not only in wilderness but at all climbing destinations. I still take friends out climbing but I am sure to instill in them what climbing is and that it is not like other sports. Part of the allure of climbing is the fact that there are unkowns, some of them being dangerous, that you must confront and learn to overcome. Overbolting ends many of these challenges FOREVER. I guess I disagree with Dave on several points. My strongest feelings come from the closely bolted climbs I have experienced on the east slab at Flagstone. Yes, I have climbed one of them in which I reached down unclipped a bolt at my feet skipped a bolt at my hips and clipped above me. I know that Dave stated that many people have expessed a desire for such climbs. I do not doubt this. Most beginners, myself included, would like to have more bolts on routes. This, however, has no basis in the long traditions of climbing nor is the predominant thinking of the majority of climbers today. New climbers must learn that most climbs out there have only 8-9 bolts per pitch. That means an average of 8-15ft between bolts. If you need to learn to clip, put up a bolt in your garage and practice clipping. If you need to learn to climb slab, rappel in and set up a toprope. If you need to practice climbing above gear, go climbing with someone who falls on gear alot and suck it up. If your a child who wants to learn to lead, go to a gym or learn to clip off of crimpers. My point is if you are a beginner driver taking your driving test and you can't parallel park you would probably wish the parking spaces were wider. It would be foolish however for the world to change currently satisfactory parking spaces 6ft bigger when that same driver after a little practice and stamina will learn to park in the existing spaces. My second gripe is the proliferation of routes. Just because there is a good line doesn't mean that the route should be bolted. I returned to Flagstone early this year to find what looked like 8-10 routes all in the 5.4-5.7 range in less than 40ft of rock. I thought that maybe 3 routes would be pushing it for that same area. Many of these routes may be very good routes but I believe that the sea of bolts there is just too ugly. Most crags you go to, a tourist might see one, two, or no bolts on the climbs. Flagstone is quite the opposite. I think you should assess an area and develop only the choicest lines, especially if you are rap bolting. I know that chopping bolts is only slighty more asthetic from the ground and not really better at all for climbers on the route to which the holes are obvious. For this reason I am an anti-chopper. I am appalled, though, to hear that even Dave agrees that some of his routes should have fewer bolts. Did you not seriously assess the route beforehand? Once there is a hole, there is always a hole. I would hope that in the future Dave will think more carefully as to which routes should be bolted and where bolts should be BEFORE BOLTING instead of in hindsight. Although I am not really a draconian chopper I have not decided what the fate of the new lines at flagstone should be. If I do decide to chop it will be after several in depth talks with Dave about his routes. If I were to make that decision no amount of rebolting (even with glue-ins) would stop me. I would continue to chop as often as they rebolt. Because this is such an important and weighty decision and responsiblity I am proceeding slowly, cautiously, and with a level head. Although many on this site are tired of the "bolting debate" I am not. I also feel this discussion is more than the theoretical debate because we are talking not about a supposed theoretical bolt 20 pitches up on an obscure route in the waddingtons, but in our own backyard. I would like to hear more from those in the area especially those who have climbed at FS. Quote
sk Posted June 29, 2003 Posted June 29, 2003 Thank you Texplorer for so elequently stating the truth in my heart I know you speak for yourself, but you speak for me as well Quote
texplorer Posted August 7, 2003 Posted August 7, 2003 The word through the grapevine is that a few routes and extraneous anchors have been chopped recently. . . . Quote
sk Posted August 8, 2003 Posted August 8, 2003 ryland_moore said: Anyone know who the hero(s) is (are)? yeppers... but if I tell ya, I'll have to kill ya I was there not participating though... just climbing Quote
bunglehead Posted August 8, 2003 Posted August 8, 2003 This whole bolting argument is sad. The only end result out of all of these silly bolt chopping wars is the rock. It SUCKS ASS to see chopped bolts. I agree with all of you guys about careful placement thought out beforehand. Anybody else read that article in the new issue of Climbing about that new park in Idaho? Although it might seem like the guy's a little autocratic, his explanations of why he does what he does for me is hard to argue. I personally would love it if we could come together as a unified group and have a local code of ethics that we all agree to honor. personally, I will probably never bolt a climb, (I love to plug gear!) but I can't bitch too much about it because I've sporto'd PLEN-TAY. I still agree though, that chopping wars suck. Anybody else besides me old enough to remember when climbing used to be the domain of loners and outcasts? I don't know, for me, not even that long ago, it used to be different. I know Smith gets UNGODLY traffic, but even a few years back it used to be a friendly place. Locals yaking it up at the base of their fav's, people watching each others kids, dogs, husbands, wives, just chilling. But it seems that sometimes lately when I go out, people aren't as friendly as they were. There's all this ego shit, and people don't chat as much as they used to. Anybody else experience this? Anyhoo, I'm rambling. I just hate chopping wars, and the divisiveness that exists in our community only hurts us in the end. Land managers see one joe climber up a slab one day bolting, and three weeks later, he sees two more people up there pulling the bolts. I'd just like to see it different, that's all. No bad bolt placements. No more squeeze jobs. And when did toproping fall into such ill repute as an acceptable form of practice? Some areas should ONLY be toproped in my opinion. It would be nice to go to Flag, or the Callahans, Or Smitty, and look up at a bolt job, and feel good about it. Ahh, I'm old. Don't listen to me. I just hate bolt wars. They suck. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, isn't a good drill kinda spendy? Couldn't one buy a whole set of SLCDs for the price of one of those things? I'd rather get a set of cams than a drill, but I'm old and kinda fucked in the head. Quote
Sphinx Posted August 8, 2003 Posted August 8, 2003 I have no clue why the Tveds would spend so much effort and time overbolting squeeze jobs. Maybe it's so their son can climb something at Flag . Quote
erik Posted August 8, 2003 Posted August 8, 2003 i have no problem with chopping the routes, tho i dont really have an opinion on this area... but i do disagree with the spray after the fact...i dont see what purpose it serves other then to cite a reaction from the "other" party. chop them silently and without a circus.... Quote
sk Posted August 11, 2003 Posted August 11, 2003 erik said: i have no problem with chopping the routes, tho i dont really have an opinion on this area... but i do disagree with the spray after the fact...i dont see what purpose it serves other then to cite a reaction from the "other" party. chop them silently and without a circus.... there is no circus... just people who heard about it. Quote
shapp Posted March 22, 2005 Posted March 22, 2005 http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/showphoto.php?photo=9993&size=big&sort=1&cat=last7 I just came across this photo in the gallery. I haven't been to Flag for about 12 years now, but we used to go there all the time in the early 90s and savor those tasty slabs with the spicy bolt placements. So is this really how things have become. I can't believe all the bolts on this route. When did this route to the left of the hydrotube get so many bolts, and who among you thought it a good idea to ruin this part of the crag! There were already a bunch of routes left of the tube at least 3 routes where located there between the tube and the steeper wall around to the left. I can't believe someone would try this type of crap. What is the current state of affairs at flagstone now. Jason Quote
Eugenian Posted March 23, 2005 Posted March 23, 2005 http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/showphoto.php?photo=9993&size=big&sort=1&cat=last7 I just came across this photo in the gallery. I haven't been to Flag for about 12 years now, but we used to go there all the time in the early 90s and savor those tasty slabs with the spicy bolt placements. So is this really how things have become. I can't believe all the bolts on this route. When did this route to the left of the hydrotube get so many bolts, and who among you thought it a good idea to ruin this part of the crag! There were already a bunch of routes left of the tube at least 3 routes where located there between the tube and the steeper wall around to the left. I can't believe someone would try this type of crap. What is the current state of affairs at flagstone now. Jason And what happened to the question mark. Why was it taken away. It was so useful for asking questions. Quote
Tyler Posted March 23, 2005 Posted March 23, 2005 And what happened to the question mark. Why was it taken away. It was so useful for asking questions. I think the question mark got chopped... Watch out, those bolts are probably next... Quote
cranestyle Posted March 23, 2005 Posted March 23, 2005 here some of my photos of Flagstone: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/showphoto.php?photo=10021&size=big&sort=1&cat=last1 http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/showphoto.php?photo=10019&size=big&sort=1&cat=last1 Despite all the debate it is a fun place to climb Quote
Ireneo_Funes Posted March 23, 2005 Posted March 23, 2005 And what happened to the question mark. Why was it taken away. It was so useful for asking questions. I think the question mark got chopped... Watch out, those bolts are porbably next... The chopped question marks will be replaced with glued-in ampersands. So if you care about keeping written language intelligible, please don't chop punctuation! Quote
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