NEWS FLASH!!

[Dru]

[iain]

how on earth did I miss that one

[erik]

you must be working....

 

that is considered bad form for postcount!

 

 

[allthumbs]

are you two cum guzzlers engaged or something? get a room!

[erik]

trask stfu!

grrrreat now i am starting sound like you!

 

shit!

 

i am going to start working!

 

[allthumbs]

erik said:

trask stfu!

grrrreat now i am starting sound like you!

 

shit!

 

i am going to start working!

what a concept

[specialed]

As if any of you actually work.

[Szyjakowski]

specialed said:

As if any of you actually work.

yeah, and like atty's work....they only steal.

[iain]

don't you have some turtles and walking mushrooms and stuff to kill specialed get out of the fridge and back to work

[chelle]

So we're bombing Baghdad right now. It's all over the tv. Brought to us via mounted cameras on buildings, with sound and commentary. I thought it was kind of strange when I learned in school how people used to picnic and watch battles during the revolutionary war. This is really fucked up "entertainment". Even though it is disturbing it is so seductive. I can't turn it off. Part of me wants to know if/when they actually hit the right target and hoepfully end this whole thing.

[mattp]

Uhh, guys.... I think it is hard to argue with most of what Necro stated:

 

1. It is morally wrong to kill. We are waging a war to disarm a regime that we say has weapons that nobody can find. We have argued that has a nuclear program, for example, that all knowlegable experts have agreed DOES NOT EXIST. It's not that Saddam wouldn't like to have such a program, but the fact seems to be that he does not now have one. Similary, we have said that Iraq supports terrorism, but our government has not provided any evidence that he has done this in recent years -- and indeed has put forth some "examples" that have proven to be exaggerated or perhaps downright false.

 

2. In the coming days and weeks, innocent people ARE going to die in large numbers. Both Iraqis and Americans. As a direct result of this war, Americans will die not only over there but also over here -- if al Queda or any other rogue who dislikes what is happening can pull it off -- and I don't see why they couldn't.

 

3. Bush has made choices that had a lot to do with taking us from relative peace and prosperity toward war, uncertainty, and continued economic slump.

 

4. The Bush administration is attacking Federal funding for public education, and is putting in place policies that reduce funding for various State programs while increasing certain mandates that they spend on things like, for example, homeland security.

 

5. In the name of national security, there has been an increase in surveillance of American citizens, detention of aliens, and "trials" without the Constitutional protections such as the right to confront one's accuser, the right to an attorney, the right to timely prosecution, etc. We can only expect that such practices will increase because our government is telling us that this is necessary for our security.

 

6. This administration, led by our president, has stated that they will pursue a policy based in the U.S. fundamental right to act as it deems fit without being accountable under a whole host of international treaties and agreements, and without being accountable to the U.N.; and that this fundamental right is based only on the fact that we are the sole superpower and deserve to remain that way so the rules that apply to the rest of the world do not apply to us.

 

7. We are a nation of sheep.

 

YOU CAN JUSTIFY ALL OF THIS, PERHAPS, BUT I BELIEVE MOST OF IT IS TRUE. I understand the idea that Saddam presents such a lingering hazard that he has to go -- and that it is better to take him out now than to wait any longer. I don't agree, but I understand the argument. I understand the argument that this is a crisis which justifies some suspension of some of the Constitutional protections that we have enjoyed in the past, or the argument that tax breaks for large and powerful corporations are going to benefit the average American citizen. But to me the outbreak of this war shows the failure of our administration's diplomatic efforts at least as much as it shows what a bastard Saddam is.

 

I don't agree with Necro that all of our freedoms are illusions, I don't agree with him (if this is what he is saying) that it is George W. Bush's fault that millions of people are starving on our streets, and I don't agree that the start of this economic slump was George W. Bush's fault. But these are sad times. Let's hope that this Iraq business is concluded with a minimum of death and destruction.

 

[allthumbs]

green's my new favorite color

[specialed]

iain said:

don't you have some turtles and walking mushrooms and stuff to kill specialed get out of the fridge and back to work

 

Sorry bro I warped to level seven, bypassing all that "work" shit.

 

Unfortunately the only thing in my fridge is processed cheese slices and beer. And some 2 week old horsecock.

[COL._Von_Spanker]

Uhhh Matt, my point is that it's the same old argument. Thing are fucked and if people don't know it than they are too stupid to try to educate in the first place.

 

My point is that all the America is evil rhetoric is a boring restating of arguable facts. People fool themselves to thinking they are political my restating what some right or left wing publication already said. It is rare that I see a high level of thinking that moves beyond stating the obvious and moves towards dicussing the solution not the problem. For GW the solution seems to be bomb Iraq so people forget the economy is struggling.

 

That's why I typically stay out of political rants, because people don't really have discussions, they just sling supposed facts back and forth. It's like listening to a protestant and a catholic throw bible verses back and forth trying to convince the other that they are right, they are merely regurgetating information, while knowingly set in their motives to prove the other wrong as opposed to seeking a higher state of understanding.

[eric8]

I haven't read necro orgininal post and i'm to lazy at the monument to go back to it.

Mattp you did state that " Similary, we have said that Iraq supports terrorism, but our government has not provided any evidence that he has done this in recent years -- and indeed has put forth some "examples" that have proven to be exaggerated or perhaps downright false"

Sadam has paid suicide bombers families 10,000$. There is also the gasing of his own people. Perhaps I'm just a sheep but I would believe when we move in that we will find weapons or documents that prove sadam was breaking un resolutions.

I agree that homeland security is mostly crap and taking money away from more important places like schools, etc

 

[Szyjakowski]

well said mattp but, I am not a sheep...i am a wolf.

This war is definitely for the wrong reasons....yet, it is here just like the Homeland security crap aka. BIG BROTHER...this scares me much more than the war against terrorism or iraq.

A war with n.korea would be bad...but anyway, the propaganda that is being flung in our faces hides the truth and the facts that american politicians are fukin black widows looking to lure a mate in and then kill! Big Brother was first coined by (i think) orwell but, it was a dream of a group of men led by rockefeller and morgan back in the early 1900's when they met up and decided how the future should look:

The Creature from Jekyll Island should explain most of this...I still intend on reading it myself. good book

I hope some of you now realize that clinton wasn't a bad president....he just was too horny and like many of us, thought too much with the wrong head.

[mattp]

Roger that, Colonel. Much of the debate in American political life is rather like that which takes place here on cc.com -- folks are just talking to hear themselves speak and so they can feel good about themselves. However, I'd generally rather see even a pointless discussion than no discussion at all.

[COL._Von_Spanker]

Deus Ex Machina

[chucK]

Now who's spouting stuff to make themself look smart?

[allthumbs]

mattp said:

Roger that, Colonel. Much of the debate in American political life is rather like that which takes place here on cc.com -- folks are just talking to hear themselves speak and so they can feel good about themselves. However, I'd generally rather see even a pointless discussion than no discussion at all.

Very true Matt I take great pride in my many thousands of POINTLESS posts.

[mattp]

eric8-

We don't have to go in there to prove that he probably has banned weapons or that he is violating U.N. resolutions. We already know that, and I don't even think the French or the German's debate these points. The question is whether these things justify the current invasion at this time.

 

The gassing of the Kurds supposedly happened in 1988. I say supposedly, because there are some who argue that it did not take place as reported. I would have to agree that it is despicable that he would promote a policy of paying the families of suicide bombers, but my guess is that this is much more of a bellicose bit of rhetoric than it is an inducement for the bombings. George W. Bush keeps telling us that Saddam "arms and harbors terrorists" but I don't think he hast been able to come with a single recent example.

[tomcat]

Bomb Saddam .. please the peace-lovers later.

 

Much love.

[dalius]

Regarding the whole issue of the gassing of the Kurds, you should really at least read a little of what this guy has to say. His name is Seargent Stan Goff, and he's a retired U.S. Army Special Forces Master and was an instructor of military science at West Point. Pretty credible source I may say... Anyway, here's the link and a thread that I thought may be interesting for those that think Saddam is gassing his own people...

 

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/031703_rolling_start.html

 

Anyone who has followed the news has heard about "Saddam's" gassing of the Kurds. That's how it is portrayed. Nonetheless, few people have bothered to find out what the truth is, or even to investigate this claim.

 

Stephen Pelletiere was the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. He was also a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000. In both roles, he had access to classified material from Washington related to the Persian Gulf. In 1991, he headed an Army investigation into Iraqi military capability. That classified report went into great detail on Halabja.

 

Halabja is the Kurdish town where hundreds of people were apparently poisoned in a chemical weapons attack in March 1988. Few Americans even knew that much. They only have the article of religious faith, "Saddam gassed his own people."

 

In fact, according to Pelletiere – an ex-CIA analyst, and hardly a raging leftist like yours truly – the gassing occurred in the midst of a battle between Iraqi and Iranian armed forces.

 

Pelletiere further notes that a "need to know" document that circulated around the US Defense Intelligence Agency indicated that US intelligence doesn't believe it was Iraqi chemical munitions that killed and aimed the Kurdish residents of Halabja. It was Iranian. The condition of the bodies indicated cyanide-based poisoning. The Iraqis were using mustard gas in that battle. The Iranians used cyanide.

 

The lack of public critical scrutiny of this and virtually all current events is also evident on the issue of the Kurds themselves.

 

The story keeps going, it's really interesting. Give it a read, you might just learn something.

[RobBob]

2. In the coming days and weeks, innocent people ARE going to die in large numbers. Both Iraqis and Americans. As a direct result of this war, Americans will die not only over there but also over here -- if al Queda or any other rogue who dislikes what is happening can pull it off -- and I don't see why they couldn't.

Alarmist pap.

 

For the record, I don't like how we got here. But it wears pretty poorly on us to be wringing our hands over here instead of backing our bretheren who are in harm's way as we speak.

[Fejas]

RobBob said:

2. In the coming days and weeks, innocent people ARE going to die in large numbers. Both Iraqis and Americans. As a direct result of this war, Americans will die not only over there but also over here -- if al Queda or any other rogue who dislikes what is happening can pull it off -- and I don't see why they couldn't.

Alarmist pap.

 

For the record, I don't like how we got here. But it wears pretty poorly on us to be wringing our hands over here instead of backing our bretheren who are in harm's way as we speak.