max

I'm not sure if it was in the book mentioned here or somewhere else, but there was mention of a person flying from LAX to Tahoe (around 6K?) for some golfing and getting hit hard enough to require medical treatment. Golfers. Wooses.

I've got some tings to share, but I should preface them by sayibng these are just bits I've picked up here and there. I'm far from an expert. 1. The statement "walk down hill" is not just being conservative. I've been told by a climber/doctor in Bellinham that the only cure (remedy the problem) for altitude sickness is descent/hyperbaric chamber. Obviously in the cascades you can ususally push throught the symptoms long enough to summit, THEN descend and feel better, but for higher stuff, once the real symptoms kick in, they probably won't go away w/o descent (again, MINOR symptoms might take care of themselves) 2. Medicines are useful for temporary relief from symptoms, but don't do much as a cure. In the cascades and CO, I've used ibu and tums w/ reasonable sucsess, but maybe I've just been dealing w/ upset stomache from a double order of eggs and bacon followed by high excertion, not as much alt. sickness. A friend reported reasonable sucsess with coca leaves in Ecuador, and I've heard (as metioned above) of others using cocaine w/ sucsess. I've been told (b'ham doc) that diamox is useful as a temporary rellief unitl your able to decesnd, but shoundn't be used to extend your range. Finally, as an aid to maintaining hydration/"clean" blood, a himilayan tour guide told me green and black tea in large quantities does good at simultainiously hydrating/ flushing toxins. 3. Prevention is major issue. I'm sure you know this but it seems worth emphasizing that rest before and during a climb combined with full hydration and good nutrition are more important than any drugs you can bring with you. I say this because I've found myself leaving for trips right after school, snacking on doritos and pepsi on the way, approaching into the night, then getting hammered the next morning. If I'd been able to/thought to get rest before, eat a solid meal, and drink plenty of water, I'd have been in much better shape. So I don't mean to come off as an expert by any means. This is just a collection of info I have/ a spring board for further discussion.

It probably sounds stupid, but I didn't realize it until I experienced it: Climbing higher grades is simply harder. I hung out at the 5.9 range for quite a while, and when Ifinally started leading 10's consistently, I was amazed at how much harder the climbing was! Duh! But the point is that the step from 5.8 to 5.9 was mostly nerves and confidence, whereas the step up to 5.10 was more an issue of conscously working/pulling harder. I found myself in more situation of "I don't think I can do this" followed by doing something hard and sucseeding.Probably not useful to you, but just an experience of mine. By the way, nice thread.

Here's another quesiton for anyone who has a freedom of the hills book. I was farting around and htink I found an answer to some problems I've had with long runners in general: First problem is that I look down and my biner is sitting perfectly sidways (crossloaded) on my long runner! Yech! I don't want to fall on that (especially since they're wiregates!) The second grumbling is that when I shorten them inot draws by passing one biner through the other, then clipping the other end (ok a terrible explaation, but if I siad folding in triple, you'de know what I meant, right?), the biner gets a muddled up and occationallt this turns into a mess when trying to one handed, off sided clip gear while resisitng fear... One soluton I saw was to clip each biner through a half hitch-type knot on each end. What's that knot called thats sup[posed to be good for tying off pins? Anyways, I figured out how to adjust it so both biners are snug and not flopping around, and it's easy to undo the whole thing to turn it into a plain runner and biner setup (as oppsed ot the tape wrapped around the sling at the biner, which is hard to undo, and even harder to pt back together after undoing.) so any comments on this method and anyone with FOTH want to look up that strength reduction factor for me?

This is contrary to what most of the others above have said. I'm sure they really have had good luck with their or stuff, but I'll just put my experience out there as more data. Gaitor: I find the or gaitors to be super clunky. Way overkill for most applications. I have a pair of old no-name crumby gortex gaitors with zippers in the back (I know, everyone hates these...) but I take them over the ors just by wieght alone, not to mention avoiding the frankenstein walk the ors give me. of course, CO snow isn't quite like the PNW's. Mitts: hate 'em I've got the... shuksans? which are supposed to be ergo cut, but I find myself flapping at things like a walrus with them on... And relatively heavy. I guess a big thing here is application. Anything you might want to use you hands for anything besides a blunt weapon, go for something else. But I will say I had a pair of the basic mitts that (before they were stolen) held up really well cutting wood in the winter w/o getting torn up, and that's a pretty serious abrasion test. I will say OR is the only company I've seen that sells a tech glove shell alone, without any liner or insulation. I'd like to get my hands on a pair of these to try and get a fine tuned system down involving complicated liner/insulation rotations (joking), but I think they might have stopped selling them alone. I do like their windstopper fleece hats for the super cold. Brought a regular fleece type cap to fairbanks in Feb, but the next day bought a windstopper one cause the regular one just didn't cut it. Also, their fleece gloves seem reasonable.

1. Sorry. Seriously. That was little short of me (to say the least.) I've always loved the self-deprecating "I'm retared." 2. But I'll say I've now actually thought about the resoles I have had done. ALL have had some change in fit. (duh.) not so much size, but more "fit". But the distinction I think is interesting is the clunker kaukulator syles shoes I'v resoled have felt more comfortable, and the thin floppy guys have always felt looser. Ok, there could be some statistically significant factors: I resole the individual pairs of slipper like shoes more, so maybe the simple age of the shoe is becoming more of... shit. Duh. Side story. I had a pair of mytho that I'd resoled at least three times. I took them to that coble in B'ham on railroad, just to have him patch some tears..oh, the tongue. He fixed the tougne. But he told me the shoes were just Rotten. literally. And he wasn't joking. He thought it was gross. But regardless, I still think there's something to too tight of shoes going south sooner than reasonably fitted shoes. Also, I believe there is enough variation in foot size and strength over the course of a shoe's lifetime that the foot you started with is not the same as the foot you have when you go to replace the shoe. (big breath) Hence, the old shoes size is irrelavant, at least no more relevant than what you can figure out trying on new shoes.

No. You know what's retared? getting on people case for making a speculation (conclussion based on incomplete evidince for the purpose of discussion), then not giving any counterexample or counter argument. Thats retared. If you've got something constructive to say, I'm all ears.

considering the data that doolittle has brought us and the lack of ANY data (or solid physics, for that matter...) glaaskow has brought us, it seems like this issue is dead. Anyone have ANY data (or solid physics, and no, that crap above and in the other thread is just that: crap) to support this screamers = increased load? FYI: I wrote BD and asked them if they had any data and the person responing said something like "I haven't done any testing like that" and wouldn't comment any further. Yeah, they might seem like gimicks, but that's differnt than saying they increase loading. Also, the industrial applications of screamer-like devices should be considered. Engineers don't (usually) just do shit because it seems cool. Again, anyone have data or would like to put forward a solid argument against screamers?

Good call SR. I know some "locals" that enjoy making noise just to make the yuppy "Fucking 206'ers" squirm. (making no implications about any of you folks...) I enjoy the "multi-use" nature of vantage. Shot guns, Yakima artillery, climbers,... it's for eveyoes use. Obviously there's something to respecting other people's rights, but I'm not sure silence (or even quiet) is a inalieable "right". Creative solutions (warning: these might require YOU to do something, as oppsed to them...): 1. Ninja camping. There are tons of places to park and sleep discretely in the vantage area. Go down to the boat launch. Try near the mouth of echo basin. How about those pullouts 1/4 mile before the feathers (where they took that picture of the "wenatchee mtb club"? These aren't official spots, but that's why it's called ninja camping... it's an adventure. Just have your shit gathered early in the morning. The best way to avoid atention when ninja camping: no fire. No fire= no light = not noticed. Plus, you're reducing you impact (one drawback of n.c.) and you'll avoid the whole got-so-drunk-I-fell-in-the-fire problem. 2. Bring a case of beer and join them (remember, you're thinking creative here.) I bet you'll have a lot of fun! I've always enjoyed being able to walk up to someones camp, hand them a beer, find out what they've been climbing, and shot the shit. Hell, if they're making a bunch of nooise, they're half drunk and they'll be kick inthe pants. 3. A polite "Hey, how's it going? Can you keep it down" sometimes works on the most latenight offenders. Be straight forward, and if they're still dicks,... well, at least you were real with them. You did your part. 4. Sleep in the car. This will provide quite a bit of sound insulation, and plus, you can listen to Dr. Dean Odell on AM 560, KPQ! 5. Noisy night? Go for a hike. Being from cle elum and all you might not think it's that spectacular (you've seen it before...), but i know there are a lot of coasties out there that haven't taken the time to explore the mesa between middle east and sunshine wall, let alone the sand dunes, the river, the little lakes tucked behind Fug's wall, the plunge pool, the diomite pits.. the list goes on. And plus, you'll get back all tired, they'll be passed out, and everyone will have a good night's slepp and no feelings will be hurt. I think the thing to keep in mind (as I hinted at above) is some people don't think "quiet" is one of the basic rights, so don't assume they're offending you. They just have a differnt slant on things and it's down right arrogant to assume your way is the right way. Fuck, its vantage! Wild partiers have been at vantage a lot longer than the climbers!

Hey dude. I had lunch (sort of) with that wacko doug a few weeks ago. He's still crazy. Anyways, I'm not going to pretend to know anything about shoes, but I will make this speculation that you can chew on and make you own opinion: I wonder if there is any correlation between making your shoes stretch alot (i.e. buying them SUPER tight) and shoes wearing out sooner. In fact, I'll go one step further and speculate that if you buy shoes TOO small, not only will they be tight (duh) but also when you go to resole them and remove/alter the rubber, the leather will "expand" and the new application of rubber will leave you with a floppy fit. The leather gets streatched but is held snug by the rubber, but when you resole, the new rubber doesn't fit tight and the shoes turns to banana. Just a thought.

Which is: 1. $85 pass? 2. Mt. Cashmere lab? Your choice.

Not at all to discount what a.f. has said here... (this seems like pretty reasonable advice to me!) but you might be suprised how much the rocks and soil have been destablized. The roots grow between, crack, and hold onto boulders and soil, but then when they burn out, leave a balanced pile or rocks (that seem like they would have been jostled and stableized over the winter...). Just an observation of what I've seen. But like af said, it can't hurt to go for a hike!

yeah, that guy sucks.

So now I feel like a dumb-ass for missing a critical piece. Well, that's sort of an overstaement. But anyways, I see mtnguide's info and !ahh! crap. I can't try to put any of these pieces together bacause CRAP in the process of looking at the diagrams in the becky guide (obviously not very carefully, huh?) to write my post, I decided my book was trashed enough to warrant a rebinding and dropped it off today. Ironic. And annoying.

What I have to offer falls into two groups: the climbs and the fire. About the climbs. They look awesome! I can't provide any information about specific routes, but I can say the formations are spectacular and I don't think very many people go there (the use per area gradient between the enchantment basin and the slopes above ingalls with all these climbs must be pretty high!) Some pics: Looking NW straight at the SE side of the nightmare needles and McClellan Peak from the Navaho peak trail. Looking NE at the west side of the formation from near hardscrabble creek. Those spires are (fuzzy!) outragous, huh!? A similar view, except from somewhere between hardscrabble and crystal creeks, looking at the lower, more southern end of the formation You will also find some good photos at this guy's site, but not much about climbing if I remember correctly erics base camp Hiking up ingals creek trail is definately the way to go, but leaves you with a serious whack getting to the climbs (at least from what I could see...) It took about 3 hours from the trailhead to good camping and a fresh-cut saw line going right up the drainage one east of crystal! About the fire: WNF incident web page from that webpage: The photos from the USFS page don't really show how hot some of this area burned, but here's one from some of the most active burning (Smoky's a little pyro! ) The reason I say this is the fire produced a very irregular pattern of burn across the hillside and dramatically reduced the stability of the rocks and trees on the slope. I can't overstate how much shit was falling during AND AFTER the active burning ... Helicopter pilots could see debris slides from 2000 ft altitude and there was at least one movement of material while crews where there that made it to near the trail! The fire operation took down most of the hazardous trees near the trail, but even a short hike up the slope would lead into some big, precariously hanging snags.. yuck. And any approach (even those dropping down from the Enchantment basin will involve some of this steep, rocky, burned, unstable terrain. Also you'll note many of the likely approach routes would invole traveling up draws that debris will funnel into. It's been a wintersince then which would seem to help stabalize some of this crap, and ultimately it comes down to a personal judgement of the environemtnal hazards, but personally, I don't think it's a good time to go there. I don't find much pleasure in grunting uphill and wondering what's hanging above me. Waiting even one more year would significantly decreases these hazards. Why risk it when there are other sweet, very similar climbs the duolith and mole a mess of "remote" enchantment hike-and-climb spires Tokette wall hope that's helpful. dave

[geeking_out] My most used not is the "nul knot" thay looks like a straight piece of rope w/o any knot at all. I use it ALL THE TIME. Kind of like the ./ directory (note I never closed the [geeking_out]. I'm working on it.)

Right. I was just pointing out the serious stress on airframes used for fire, not to mention the thrashing many of these planes recieved during their (classified!) military tours.

another mine cleanup (Holden) No thanks...

BD: "Yeah, we're dedicated to the people. Liie, we're all a bunch of climbers. We don't make screamers 'cause they don't work *cough*bullshit!*cough*. Did I mentio nwe don't care about profit? We're to community oriented to care about profits." I'm all about companies being profit grubbing mother fuckers. I am. There's no other was it can happen in capitalism (without regulation, and that's even worse than mother fuckers). What pisses me off though is when they start acting cool. "Community" "Partners" "dedication to quality". Quality my ass. More like price point and market niche. And As I said, that doesn't bother me, just don't act otherwise. (I guess its just capitalism kicking it up a notch in pursuit of profits.)

Hey, sorry about that. I didn't mean to imply I took this pic and I should have credited you with the photo. I guess what struck me about this photo is that it's good evidence that wind slab is different than wind deposition. Speaking of wind deposition... megadunes of antarctica

Fixed wing and Helo fatalities for wildland fire operations (from http://www.airtanker.com/ on the memorial tab...) 1958 Joseph Anthony PBY 1958 Elliot Corbett 1958 Arnell Talbot PBY 1958 George Carey 1958 Stewart Kilgore PBY 1958 J. C. Brehm 1958 Geroge Jess 1958 Patrick Hendricks 1958 Donald Doughty 1958 Carl Milligan V-35 1958 Virgil Sanders 1958 William Archibald V-35 1958 LeRoy Englert 1960 Donald Ackers TBM 1962 Robert Hill N3N 1960 John Bowman B-25 1963 Dexter Booth Jr. TBM 1960 James Armstrong B-25 1963 Louis Leach F7F 1960 Charles Franco B-25 1963 James Mosely B26 1960 F.W. (Bill) Druehl TBM 1963 Charles Cline 1961 Charles Cochrane TBM 1963 Lester Liston 1961 Verd Beatty TBM 1963 Fredrick Childers 1961 Arthur Beall TBM 1963 Norman Yantze 1961 Bernard Evart F7F 1963 Robert Savaria P61 1961 Horold Hill B18 1963 John Trumbull 1961 Doyle Keeing PBY 1963 George R. Kunkel TBM 1961 Waldo John Hackman 1964 Lou Parker 1961 Render Matthews PBY 1966 John Hennessey AJ 1962 Alvin Walters TBM 1967 Paul Hanson B25 1962 Robert Christopherson F7F 1967 Donald Block 1962 Theodore Schueler 1968 Bob Morrison TBM 1962 William Chevrolt 1969 Dave Staudt PB4Y2 1962 Marice McFadden 1969 Wayne Garkie PB4Y2 1970 Don Campbell PBY 1975 Alford Adolph B17 1970 John Carter PBY 1975 Robert Rzyalinski B17 1970 Marcel Roberts TBM 1976 Don Goodman B26 1970 Ray Elgin B17T 1976 Ed Jinks B26 1970 John Bastian B17T 1976 Bill Sears S2 1970 Robert Holiday B17 1976 Larry Myers S2 1970 Mark Sloan B17 1977 Paul Bellville O2 1970 Robert Bloomfield B17 1977 Joe Holstein O2 1971 Dick Ranck TBM 1978 James Lippitt S2 1971 Harry Owens TBM 1978 Darwin Kern DC7 1972 David Poindexter B17 1978 John Turner DC7 1972 Wayne Waller B17 1978 Victor Mortan DC7 1973 Dick Rogers Bell 206 1978 Donald Baxter DC7 1974 Larry Mortinson PV2 1978 John Davis DC7 1974 Timothy Chittenden PV2 1979 Gayle Eaton S2 1974 John Fletcher B26 1979 Denny Conners C119 1974 George Stell PB4Y2 1979 Richard Ray C119 1974 Greg Stell PB4Y2 1979 Charles Colton B17 1974 Bill Benedict F7F 1979 Joe LeRoux B17 1974 Mike Fagen F7F 1979 Bob Masters B17 1974 Dick Miller F7F 1980 Clyde Alford DC4 1985 Bill Harnden PBY 1980 Don Letnes DC4 1986 Richard Boyd S2 1981 Lou Remsehner C119 1986 Clarence Lind S2 1981 Teddy Sveum C119 1987 Bill Berg C119 1981 Merton Jackson T34 1987 Stephen Harrell C119 1982 James Eakin S2 1987 Charles Peterson C119 1983 Bill Smothers B26 1987 Nathan Kolb P2V 1984 Ed Real S2 1987 Woodward Miller P2V 1984 Ted Bell S2 1987 Donn Johnson S2 1985 James Dunlap PBY 1988 Chuck Watkins BE-58P 1985 Tim Trudell PBY 1990 Ralph Glasgow P2V 1995 Lisa Nitsch DC4 1990 Stephen Bovey P2V 1995 Mike Smith BE-58P 1991 John Sieglinger P3 1995 Robert Hollins Hughes 369D 1991 Robert Shaw P3 1996 Lee Sunderstrom Dromader 18A 1991 Henry Kim BE-58P 1997 John Hirth PV2 1992 Chuck Sheridan DC7 1997 William Babka PV2 1992 Leonard Martin DC7 1997 David Kyle OV10 1992 Roger Stark S2 1997 Floyd Hiser Bell 206 1994 Bob Buc C130 1998 Duane Williams CH54 1994 Joe Johnson C130 1998 George Converse CH54 1994 Shawn Zaremba C130 1998 Jose Castillo CH54 1994 Bob Kelly P2V 1998 J. D. Donahue P2V 1994 Randy Lynn P2V 1998 Chuck Key P2V 1995 Gary Cockrell DC4 1998 Gary Nagel S2 2000 Carl Payne AT802 2000 Kip Krigbaum Vertol KV-107 2000 Sam Tobias 337 2002 Steve Wass C130 2000 Leo W. Koponen 337 2002 Craig LaBare C130 2000 Lester Shadrick Bell 412 2002 Mike Davis C130 2000 David Newman UH1H 2002 Rick Schwartz PB4Y2 2000 Mike Fossett UH1H 2002 Milt Stollak PB4Y2 2001 Doug Gilbert Thrush S-2R 2002 Leonard G. Knight Aerospatiale Lama 2001 Larry Groff S2 2003 Carl Dolbeare P2V-7 2001 Lars Stratte S2 2003 John Attardo P2V-7 2001 Richard Hernandez Vertol KV-107 2001 Santi Arouitx Vertol KV-107 If this is crap, it's not just internet crap. I saw this photo published in .... "Fire Management" (?) page with CBS video footage of catastophic wing failure mid-flight (try the link in lower right under multimedia tab..) and another crash in CO from the same year (if I remember correctly...) of a PBY: These planes are just pushed to the limit ALL the time. There are no "milk runs" here. 200ft off the deck at 150+ knots, full payloads, turbulent air, always new terrain, and other air resources buzzing around. Dangerous!

oh, I just think it's funny to hear someone act serious about anything on the public internet, on a climbing board, or in the topic spray!

I think what you should do is just say outright: "Our 'policy' on banning people is we'll do it when we want to." I think this is really the truth, isn't it? How can it be anyway else? You're the ones runnig the site! It seems like saying anything else is just trying to sugar coat it! uh, ok. I choose "leave 'em." And fyi: I'm not convinced this isn't just a TROLL on stinx's part, much more sucsessful than the "Bush sux" and "liberals suck" ass-excuse-for-spray thats been around here lately. oh, and here's some porn for ya'

Will Gadd Said: Something makes me think he's not too up on what on order of magnitude is... ten times harder.. I can't believe it.