jon

--- (This message is critically important) --- Three days ago Congress held its first-ever Oversight Hearing on Fee-Demo. Having listened in on it, I am pleased to report that there were many Congressmen who expressed serious misgivings about the program. That is the good news. The bad news can perhaps best be summarized by a close examination of the first two paragraphs of the testimony given on behalf of the US Forest Service by Denny Bschor (see below). Mr. Bschor stated four critically important points. In the text below I reference these points by number and draw your attention to them here: [1] The hearing was not about making a decision whether or not to permanently authorize recreation user fees. The hearing was about the USFS starting to work with this Natural Resources Committee to develop a replacement program for Fee-Demo which is already on its way out. A new and improved recreation fee program is in the works and will be introduced by the President in the Spring of 2002. [2] Fee-Demo is not, and never was, about collecting revenues for needed maintenance of recreation facilities. Fee-Demo has always been a program intended to "test the notion of 'user-play' recreation'" (Denny's words, not mine!). Fee-Demo has always been thought of by land management agency leaders and by friendly government supporters of the American Recreation Coalition as a transition program from 'Wild and Free' outdoor recreation on public lands to 'Commercialized, Industrial Strength Recreation, Pay-to-Play' recreation. [3] Once again, I stress, as Mr. Bschor stressed in his testimony, --- recreation user fees is not about maintaining EXISTING facilities, It is about "provid(ing) ENHANCED user services and facilities." Recreation user fees is about changing the nature of outdoor recreation. It is about the Corporate Takeover of Nature and the Disneyfication of the Wild. [4] Fee-Demo is set to expire one year from Sunday. Congress will, within the next few days, decide whether to extend this demonstration for an additional four years as the President requested. Several large recreation organizations have recently urged their members to write to Congress and ask that they extend the demonstration for no more than ONE year. This was most unfortunate! If fee-demo is NOT extended, the USFS will be forced to use existing funds to phase-out the program starting early next year. If this happens, fee-demo opponents will score a knock-down punch and the survival of recreation user fees will be in jeopardy. If, on the other hand, authorization for the current program is extended by as little as one additional year, then the Administration, the agencies, the American Recreation Coalition and their friends in Congress will knock our side out with their new and improved (and worse than ever) Recreation Phase II Program. THAT BEING THE CASE, I IMPLORE YOU to call or write today and demand that Congress does NOTHING that would extend the current demonstration by as much as one day. Demand that the demonstration be allowed to run its course and then be thoroughly evaluated AFTER the current demonstration has ended. Thanks so much for your help. Please do what you can to encourage others to call or write today. Scott PS... An Action Alert is appended! ------- begin quoted --------- http://www.fs.fed.us/congress/2001_testimony/9_25_01_bschor_on_rec_fee.htm Statement of Dennis Bschor Acting Associate Deputy Chief Forest Service United States Department of Agriculture Subcommittee on Forests and Forest Health Committee on Resources United States House of Representatives on September 25, 2001 Concerning - Recreational Fee Demonstration Program Mr. Chairman and members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I am Denny Bschor, Acting Associate Deputy Chief for the National Forest System. We appreciate the Committee's interest in reviewing the recreational fee demonstration program and would like to work with Congress on [1] developing a replacement for this very important program. The recreational fee demonstration program was first authorized by Congress in the fiscal year (FY) 1996 Interior Appropriations Act (Section 315 of Public Law 104-134). It has given the Forest Service, Park Service, Fish and Wildlife Service, and the Bureau of Land Management an important opportunity to test the notion of "user-pays" recreation [2] where fees are collected and expended on-site to provide enhanced user services and facilities [3] . The current authorization expires on September 30, 2002. Unless the demonstration program is extended or new authority is granted, this important tool will disappear at the end of FY 2002, and our phase-out will begin even sooner[4]. <Continues> -------- ACTION ALERT FOLLOWS ------------- HOUSE HEARINGS ON FEE DEMO ­ WRITE BY OCTOBER 1ST OR CALL TODAY -- Capitol Switchboard: (202) 224-3121 The House subcommittee on Forests & Forest Health held an oversight hearing on the Recreation Fee Demo Program on Sept. 25th. WHAT TO DO: The public record is held open for 10 days after the hearing (i.e. till Friday Oct. 05), to allow for written comments from across the nation. These are the FIRST public hearings in DC specifically on the Recreation Fee Demo Program since Feb. 1998! We have to generate hundreds of letters in opposition to Fee Demo, to demonstrate clearly how unpopular forest fees are with the American public. Will you help us, by writing once again? WHO TO WRITE: Please write to Congressman Scott McInnis Chair, Subcommittee on Forests & Forest Health 1337 Longworth Washington, DC 20515. You may also send a copy to the minority chair of the subcommittee, Congressman Jay Inslee (D-WA) ­ who opposes Fee Demo. Address it to: Congressman Jay Inslee 1329 Longworth Washington, DC 20515. Please mail your letters by Monday Oct. 1st (from the West Coast); a day or so later is OK from the East Coast. Letters should arrive in DC on or before Friday, October 5th. WHAT TO SAY: Please state your opposition to Fee Demo (remember, this subcommittee has jurisdiction over National Forests only) and list the reasons why. Here's a sample letter (please change it a little): Dear Congressman Scott McInnis, I strongly oppose the Recreation Fee Demo Program on America's National Forests. Our taxes already support these forests, and many low-income families are being kept away by forest fees. Please end the program as soon as possible. Please do nothing to extend the authority of this program. I'd like my letter to be part of the public record for the hearing on 9.25.01. Thank you. Please make sure to print your name and address very clearly ­ legislators may discard letters if they can't read who they're from. Thank you for helping to tell our legislators how strongly we oppose Fee Demo! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Scott Silver Wild Wilderness 248 NW Wilmington Ave. Bend, OR 97701 phone: 541-385-5261 e-mail: ssilver@wildwilderness.org Internet: http://www.wildwilderness.org ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Shit, you didn't check your private messages.

You guys have frieghtening number of posts.

LOL fuckena man!

I think this guy has the solution http://www.irelanduncovered.com/monkeypiss.htm Hey Drul, doesn't ddH20 have pH of like 4-5?

Tim and I saw some guys in the Icicle on Tuesday and Wednesday. Those guys are fucking hardcore, it was so freaking hot and they had their full dark camo, not to mention the amount of gear they were carrying.

by the way that was funny shit Beck!

Everyone here is now stupider after reading that.

I agree wit da captin arrrr! How about a forum for all bolting and access related issues?

I was actually just about to post about this. Timmay and I climbed N. Ingalls on Monday and someone had put a flag on the top. It was quite a sight with Stuart in the distance. I'll post the picture next week.

We made stickers when we first started the site, man almost one year ago. Time flies when your spraying! We still have a bunch of stickers left, and if I wasn't severely artistically handycaped I'd make some more with a new design. The stickers can be found at Pro Mountain Sports and if you don't know where that is you betta ask somebody. If anyone has anything that resembles artistic talent and would be willing to help design some new stickers that would be very cool, throw me an email. They are relatively cheap to have made.

I was there a couple months ago during a concert and experienced similar things, although I didn’t see any spraypaint. The place was packed to the walls, the noise didn’t stop until 5 in the morning, and the place was completely trashed. There were campfires everywhere, which I understand where prohibited, and pretty sure none of these assholes had the fish and wildlife sticker that all the climbers are supposed to have and have been ticketed for. If the climbing community is going to be held to such a high standard by government and local agencies and punished for rule breaking and stripped of rights, then those standards need to apply to everyone otherwise it is purely discriminatory. I think the best thing to do is make this a really proactive conversation. Share your feelings and your anger, but refrain from being too vulgar. I’ll forward the responses on to people at the Frenchman Coulee Climbers Coalition, the Access Fund, and last but not least our friends at Fish and Wildlife. There needs to be action taken here, against the people committing these acts, and I think against the people who are profiting the most from this, the people who are putting on these concerts. $50 to sit in a grass hill to barely see your favorite group, $20 to camp, what a god damn joke. The mindless and careless free for all needs to end.

I've got mine, though I probably won't put it up, it was from my grandfathers funaral at Arlington National Cemetary last year. Visiting a place like that makes you realize what sacrafices people made to protect us and our country. I guess today our luck just ran out...

"Well if its gonna be that kinda party I'm goin to stick my dick in the mash potatas!" -Beastie Boys

There was no snow on it when I flew over it 3 weeks ago and Tim also told me there isn't any. He should know, he can see it from his office, jerk.

MSR has a new cookset out called the Blacklight, lightweight nonstick aluminum. Have yet to use mine yet though.

For shits and giggles I decided to go to MountainZone.com to see if there was anything still there. Sure enough, posted just today on their website was a note saying they had bought back some of their assets from the Quokka bancruptcy and are starting over.

CLIMBERS ALERT Congress Could Extend "Test" Use Fees Program for Four More Years! Now is the time to speak up and oppose use fees as a substitute for full public lands funding through the federal budget. In early September 2001, negotiators from the House of Representatives and the Senate will meet to decide whether the controversial Recreational Fee Demonstration Program ("Fee Demo") should be extended for four more years – through 2006. This program has already been extended three times – it was only supposed to last through the year 2000! Fee Demo authorizes the federal lands agencies (National Park Service, Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, etc.) to impose new charges, and raise existing fees, for almost any use of our public lands. A direct consequence of this is that in many national forests, it now costs $5 or more simply to park your car and watch the sunset! The Access Fund and other human powered recreation groups have asked Congress not to extend this "test" program any further until a complete and unbiased cost-benefit analysis has been performed. To date, no such examination of the program has been completed. More importantly, Congress has never offered the public an opportunity to comment on Fee Demo, and on the broader question of whether access to any part of our public lands should be free. As you are aware, our federal lands agencies are operating under tight budgets and have not had sufficient funding in recent years to address the large backlog of infrastructure maintenance and difficulties posed by reductions in critical staff positions. But Fee Demo, or any similar "pay-to-play" program designed to raise revenue from recreational uses of the public domain, will never provide enough funds to solve these problems. The most effective – and fairest – way to fund these useful and proper functions of government is through sufficient annual appropriations. In addition, pay-to-play schemes are inherently discriminatory against citizens of lower income. Pay-to-play is also fundamentally flawed in that it is open-ended: fees can and will continue to be raised in both type and amount, with no constraints against such escalation. And as many of our members have written us to complain, the American public is already paying for use and enjoyment of our public lands, through federal income taxes. The GAO’s reports on Fee Demo over the past three years suggest the BLM, Forest Service and Park Service need to make significant improvements in their implementation of new fee authority. The agencies should be much more cost-effective and fiscally responsible in their fee collection and use. Use fees should only be used for maintenance, rehabilitation and improvement of existing facilities -- not to develop new facilities, which widens the gap between existing maintenance needs and available funding. Under no circumstances should agencies be forced to use fee demo revenues for general operations because of a lack of general fund appropriations. Development and management of recreation opportunities on public lands should focus on resource management, stewardship, environmental restoration, and continued access. The Access Fund is concerned that the ability of public agencies to collect user fees in some locations and from some user groups more easily than from others will drive land management and facility maintenance decisions. The mere fact that some users are more easily targeted than others should not be the basis for decisions about where to charge and spend user fees. Tell Congress that they should not reauthorize use fees without thorough public process. Any legislation permanently authorizing use fees should be subjected to public hearings and the full committee process. The use fee issue is controversial enough (witness the legislative efforts in California and Oregon to have use fees for national forest recreation rescinded) that the public should be granted the opportunity to provide anecdotal feedback on the performance of the demonstration program and to convey their support (or antipathy) for permanent fee authorization. We have already seen that the federal land agencies are so desperate for funding that they will act disingenuously to keep Fee Demo alive. The Forest Service, for example, has counted every visitor to national forest lands who has paid a new access or use fee as being in favor of the program. This is hardly appropriate, let alone an accurate way to measure public sentiment. The Forest Service has also pushed for making Fee Demo permanent before a thorough evaluation of the program could be completed, suggesting the agency does not want a full assessment of the program’s shortcomings. The Access Fund opposes the perpetuation of the Recreation Fee Demonstration Program. Fee Demo has proven difficult to implement as designed, has become increasingly unpopular with the public, and has provided little relief, in absolute terms, for public land agencies suffering from years of reductions in budget appropriations. Our membership is strongly opposed to use fees in general and Fee Demo in particular (only 13% said in our latest survey that they are in favor of making pay-to-play programs a permanent part of funding for public lands). Two things you can do to help right now: 1. Make a donation to the Access Fund - Send your contribution to The Access Fund, Use Fees Campaign, PO Box 17010, Boulder, CO 80308 2. Convince Congress to do two things - Reject the proposed four-year extension of Fee Demo through 2006, and complete the required evaluation of the program’s strengths and weaknesses. - Move the consideration of Fee Demo to the Authorizing Committees of the House and Senate, instead of making the program permanent by continued inclusion in annual spending (appropriations) bills. The public should be offered formal opportunities to comment on any permanent authority to raise and impose recreational use fees on the public lands. SAMPLE LETTER (for best results, re-write in your own words) 1 September 2001 The Hon. Joe Skeen Chair, House Subcommittee on Interior Appropriations B308 Rayburn HOB Washington, DC 20515-6023 The Hon. Robert Byrd Chair, Senate Subcommittee on Interior and Related Agencies Appropriations United States Senate Washington, DC 20510 Re: Extension of Recreation Fee Demonstration Program beyond 2002 Dear Congressman Skeen and Senator Byrd, I am writing to oppose a four-year extension of the Recreation Fee Demonstration Program through the 2002 Appropriations bill. Fee Demo has been in "demonstration" phase since 1996. It is inappropriate to continue to extend the program through the appropriations process without completing the required cost-benefit analysis, and without offering the public opportunities to comment on the program. If use fees are to become a permanent part of the recreational experience on our public lands, an evaluation of Fee Demo and of the broader issue of public lands funding is necessary. For this reason, I strongly urge Appropriations Committees conferees to reject the proposed fourth extension of Fee Demo and to turn over consideration of Fee Demo and permanent fee authority to the authorizing committees, so that they may hold public hearings and determine the fate of the program more democratically. I believe all core programs of the federal land management agencies should be fully funded out of the general budget. For both practical and philosophical reasons, access and use fees should not be institutionalized to replace or even supplement annual appropriations. There has not been a complete and honest enough evaluation of the Fee Demo program to date to justify its extension, and there certainly has not been enough cost-benefit analysis of the program to warrant the establishment of a permanent fee authorization. I also respectfully suggest that the public should not be asked to pay for the privilege of enjoying our public lands as long as the government continues to provide generous subsidies to the timber, mining, and grazing industries. Ending or merely reducing these subsidies would provide more than enough "extra" funds to pay for the administrative needs of our public lands. I urge you to act in accordance with the convictions of a growing majority of the public and not to support permanent recreational use fee authority. The demonstration program should be honestly and thoroughly evaluated before it is extended further. We applaud your commitment to providing sufficient resources to the federal lands agencies and urge you to do all in your power to boost and maintain funding levels through the fairest and most effective mechanism: annual budget appropriations. Thank you again for your leadership in protecting and providing for recreational use of our marvelous public lands. Sincerely, Your name and address. The following senators and members of the House of Representatives are on appropriations (spending) committees and should also be contacted if they represent your state or district: House Subcommittee on Interior Appropriations Joe Skeen, New Mexico (Chair) Norm Dicks, Washington Ralph Regula, Ohio John Murtha, Pennsylvania Jim Kolbe, Arizona James Moran, Virginia Charles Taylor, North Carolina Maurice Hinchey, New York George Nethercutt, Washington Martin Olav Sabo, Minnesota Zach Wamp, Tennessee Jack Kingston, Georgia John Peterson, Pennsylvania Senate Subcommittee on Interior Appropriations Robert Byrd, West Virginia (Chair) Patrick Leahy, Vermont Ernest Hollings, South Carolina Harry Reid, Nevada Byron Dorgan, North Dakota Patty Murray, Washington Dianne Feinstein, California Conrad Burns, Montana Ted Stevens, Alaska Thad Cochran, Mississippi Pete Domenici, New Mexico Robert Bennett, Utah Judd Gregg, New Hampshire Ben Nighthorse Campbell, Colorado Check out http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ to find contact information for your Senator or Representative. We’re at a crucial moment in the Fee Demo battle. Congress heads back to Washington the week after Labor Day, and will approve some form of the Interior Appropriations bill shortly thereafter. Contact your Senators and Representatives now and voice your opposition to the Fee Demo program. Sincerely, SAM DAVIDSON Executive Director For more information, contact Jason Keith, Access Fund Policy Analyst, at 303-545-6772, ext. 102 or at mailto:jason@accessfund.org [This message has been edited by jon (edited 08-24-2001).]

Just got this email, looks like very good news for everyone. ########################################### Fee-Demo articles have begun popping up like wildflowers after a downpour and the news is all good. I've pasted short snips from three articles below and encourage people to read the entire articles online. My thanks to everyone involved in making this news happen and a very special thanks to those fee-demo protesters in Arizona who appeared in court yesterday and who, through their efforts, confirmed that the USFS MAY NOT ISSUE A FEE-DEMO TICKET TO AN UNATTENDED PARKED VEHICLE. Activists have been saying exactly this for years (www.wildwilderness.org/docs/tips.htm), but the truth never seemed to prevent the USFS from issung these inappropriate tickets. Perhaps the USFS will pay attention to US Magistrate Judge Stephen Verkamp and will finally stop issuing tickets they have NO authority to issue. All forest visitors must be presumed INNOCENT of fee-demo offenses unless the USFS can provide evidence to the contrary. That is a constitutional right .... and it's something the Forest Service has somehow forgotten. Scott PS... Senator Graham's Fee-Demo Bill S1011, would change the law such that forest visitors could be PRESUMED GUILTY UNTIL PROVED INNOCENT. S1011, if passed, would force Judge Verkamp to find future recipients of these same fee-demo tickets GUILTY as charged. If Senator Graham's bill passes, I hope its constitutionality will be immediately challenged!! ---- begin quoted ---- http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0821/p1s2-ussc.html In the great outdoors, resistance to rising fees Opposition builds as more federal lands ask visitors to pay. By Hal Clifford | Special to The Christian Science Monitor OURAY, COLO. - Retiree John Montle has never protested anything in his life. Now the avid outdoorsman is waiting to appear in court for defying the federal government. Mr. Montle is part of a growing revolt over a controversial pay-to-play program being tested on federal lands nationwide. For years, the federal government has charged entrance fees to national parks - and even raised them recently - with relatively little complaint from the public. Now, however, several other federal agencies - including the US Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, and the US Fish and Wildlife Service - are levying user fees at a growing number of outdoor haunts that used to be free. <CONTINUES> ----------------- http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=23842 Red Rock pass system in trouble By LARRY HENDRICKS Sun Staff Reporter 08/21/2001 A federal magistrate in Flagstaff has dealt what appears to be a major setback to the ability of the Coconino National Forest to enforce its Red Rock Recreation Pass demonstration program. Before a packed U.S. District Court in Flagstaff Monday, three of four people who refused to pay fees associated with the program were not required to pay fines because they were not seen by rangers near vehicles that were cited. That means Forest Service rangers will have to spend more time trying to find the owners of vehicles illegally parked in the National Forest, said one Forest Service official. Previously, rangers had been ticketing vehicles parked at trailheads that did not display the Red Rock passes regardless of whether they made contact with the owners. <CONTINUES> --------------- http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=23871 Courtroom erupts in applause for verdict By LARRY HENDRICKS Sun Staff Reporter 08/21/2001 The four people who decided to take their cases to court on the recommendation of the AZ NoFee Coalition were Margaret Jackson, Ken R. Brinkel and David L. Kuhn of Sedona; and Evaline C. Derosa, of Truckee, Calif. According to citations issued to the four, only Kuhn was contacted by a Forest Service Ranger. The other three were not in the vicinity when their vehicles were cited. Two immediately had their cases dismissed by the U.S. Attorney's Office. The cases of Jackson and Brinkel were dismissed by Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Lodge just before the four trials were to begin because he said the cases were unlikely to result in convictions based upon U.S Attorney's Office guidelines <CONTINUES> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Scott Silver Wild Wilderness 248 NW Wilmington Ave. Bend, OR 97701 phone: 541-385-5261 e-mail: ssilver@wildwilderness.org Internet: http://www.wildwilderness.org ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Cpt. Kornhole you didn't kill us brutha, you killed our stunt doubles, which are being replaced with a team of evil rabid pornstar midgits that are going to come to your place and blast your backdoor in. Beck, keep hazing youself! Drul there is a cure for gynaherpaclap, maybe the kids will stop running from YOU if you get treated. The meds are cheaper in Canyukland, get them there. EazyEddieE, say it dude! You won't! You won't say it! Jman, your the offspring of the Asian Printheth? You must be really fuqen buckled! Fuqena dude, it's ok man, I understand, but YOU CAN take the bag off your head when your at home by yourself. AlpineKrapper, I'll drop squishys on you from a considerable height while Erika gives you a golden shower for your troubles. Chipper, sheat, only thing chipper was your mama after Jman/AsianPrintheth gave her a little strapon action, or is it thtrapon! Erika......keep it real dude.

Everythings fixed, sorry about that. Was away from the computer all day. I won't go into the nerdy details of what happened.

Who had the baby? From the sounds of it Caveman could be capable of it.

Camera World is actually kind of expensive, but it is still a good place. The cheapest places are on the east coast typically in New York. Some are really sketchy and some are very good, I can tell you which one's I've had good and not so good experiences with. A good local place in the Seattle area is OpTechs which is off of Denny St. exit in Seattle, and Glazers which is down the street. Prices at OpTechs are pretty good and the people are incredibly nice, you just get screwed with the sales tax. Pen - Cameras West should be able to do APS to KodakCD, also Pacific Color in Greenlake, Overlake Photo in Bellevue, just call around.

So that is like $200 american right?