jon

I don’t refuse to pay the fees because I hate taxes. I don’t refuse to pay the fees because I’m cheap. I refuse to pay the fees because the money doesn’t go to what it should be going for like trail improvements, ranger salaries and such. Instead it goes into the general fund. The fee is in no way able to support the workings of the forest service, let alone hardly support itself. The fee demo is also supported by the ARC, a group that only cares about is getting access to our public land at little to no price for them so they can profit from it. The fees also detract users who are of lower income and minority backgrounds. I’ve done quite a bit of research about this subject, and that is why I am against the forest pass in its CURRENT state. If things were to change where the fees were legitimate than I’d be more than happy to pay it. I based my decision on being educated in the issue. As far as being selfish, I’m incredibly selfish and proud of it. I was a SAR volunteer for 6 years. I was a volunteer youth soccer coach for two years. I was a volunteer high school football coach for two years. Did I mention that I do AIDS related cancer research for a living? Yeah I’m pretty self absorbed. Go find another tree to piss on Craig. Alpine Tom, the guy who you are talking about is a black minister from Seattle. He protests every weekend at the Alpental parking lot during the summer. Here is the article http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/display?slug=fees&date=19990815&query=fee+demonstration. With the help of Ray, I’m putting together a more encompassing access section for the website that will cover issues like the fee demo and the proposed development outside Rainier.

Last I read they pretty much called the search off with the exception of some snow mobile search volunteers. Hopefully they will find these two this summer to put a little closure on the incident. I guess you can never take a quick day trip for granted......

I just read on f_ckedcompany.com that Dell has laid off 500 people today, which includes all of their hosting division. Unfortunately this is who our hosting is through. Luckily for us we have been planning on changing hosts and are ready to do so to accomadate the route database. So if the site isn't working right or just not here, don't worry, we've planned ahead. Jon [This message has been edited by jon (edited 04-06-2001).]

I have a Tikka and love it, but since I haven't tried the others I can't really compare. As mentioned the Tikka is so small you can pack it anywhere, even in your chalk bag pouch. There is really no excuse not to carry it. I carry mine in my pack when I ride my bike from Bellevue to Seattle for work. There has been a couple times this winter where my bike light crapped out in pouring rain at night. If I hadn't put the Tikka in my pack I would have been a very dark an dangerous ride home. My only complain about the Tikka is that it's a pain to open when you have to change the batteries. I know there was a review in one of the mags around December. Something to look for in the future are based on the Halide ARC lights. These are the same annoying blue lights you see on BMWs and other richie cars. They just came out with them for biking and climbers should see them soon. Here is a link http://www.niterider.com/main.htm.

GT - Iths only tuethsday and your already dithtracted. I think we need to get Z a dicthonary, or is it a thethoris, or maybe a sthpell checker.....I better watch or someone with a sthpeacking disorder might sthue us.

I'll see if I can hack the scripts that generate those pages to disclude the "spray fest" Jon

These links are from Scott Silver of Wild Wilderness, please check them out. First is from the Seattle Times http://seattletimes.nws ource.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/SeattleTimes.woa/wa/gotoArticle?zsection_id=268448415&text_only=0&slug=judd01&document_id=134279768 http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2001/04/04022001/feedemo_42774.asp [This message has been edited by jon (edited 04-02-2001).]

We talked about this a while back. He's the thread. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/000006.html I'd go see a couple of doctors if you feel a lot of grinding. I say a couple because you most likely will get a different diagnosis from each as well as a different treatment regiment. Be very weary of the knife!

Mike and Crose, I just want to forewarn you guys that typically the SAR people do not allow others to help on missions. I’m not saying don’t go or they won’t let you help, this is just my observation from being in SAR for a number of years. Unfortunately there is a bunch of liability issues and state guidelines they have to follow. It’s great you want to help though and really hope they find these guys alive and in one piece. Let us know if you hear anything.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/28/nepal.blindmountainee.ap/index.html

I’m not sure whether I’m restating what has already been stated or stating the obvious. Rodchester, if I understand your question you want to know what the physical property differences are between the half and double ropes. I don’t know really how they make the ropes and adjust the dynamics of the rope, but there has to be a difference between ropes. Here is my understanding based on physics. You Boeing and engineering guys feel free to chime in here. Lets say you fall climbing with a single rope. The rope is designed to stretch and thus absorb a certain amount of your downward force so you don’t get hurt or rip out your top piece by having to large of a final impact force. Now lets say you are climbing with two single ropes, let’s say 10.5s same as above for comparison sake. If you fall, because two ropes are absorbing the force, they won’t stretch as much, and thus slowing you fall quicker, producing a larger shock load when the rope stops stretching. I don’t know if they have some equation for this, but there must be some relation between the fall force and stretch characteristics of the rope versus where the rope actually stops stretching. So my assumption is that there is a difference in stretch characteristics between the double and twin. If my above example is right, the twins will have to stretch somewhere close to twice as much as a single to have the same minimal impact force as a single. Now with the double, because you would fall on either one rope alone or a combination of the two, but not two equally unless you clipped them into the same piece, there stretch would be comparable to a single, if not just a bit more. Someone stated that with twins you would be putting twice as much force on your pro. I don’t believe this to be correct. There might be more based on the rope stretch dynamics, but if they are designed right, there shouldn’t be a difference between twin and single. If all my examples are right, there should be a differences between the two. I hope I’m somewhat correct and answers the questions. word up Jon

With the aid of an arsenal of Keystone Light with it's specially lined can , I updated the pictures on the front page last night. Thank you to everyone who sent in pictures. There are still some more to add, but please keep sending them in. Jon

http://frenchmancoulee.org/ This is a group working with Land Management for Frenchman Coulee. My guess is they wouldn't appreciate youon their message boards asking about route info, but you should find the email addresses for the guidebook authors, I know they are there somewhere. Last I heard there was a new guidebook in the works.

I was unsure whether to post this or not, especially coming from a big conglomerate like Nike, but maybe someone out there is looking to jumpstart their modeling career. At the very least its a few hundreds bucks, a free trip to Smith, and probably some free kicks. I’ve jumped in my flame retardant suit so let have it! Hello, I am casting for a Nike hiking/bouldering photo shoot The casting will be at my home and should take about 10 min: 4216 NE 16th Portland Oregon between Mason and Skidmore four blocks north of Fremont Saturday, March 24 from 9am to 11:30am wear hiking outfit/boots The shoot will be two days in central Oregon The job will pay $350/day we will take care of transportation and accommodations Two male and two female talent will be chosen looking for: 1. male foot size 8-10 ages 18 to 30 medium build very good shape any ethnicity 2. female foot size 6-9 ages 18 to 30 medium build very good shape any ethnicity If you have any questions, please email me back: mbcoordinating@aol.com Thanks a lot, Michelle Boucher

Apparently we have become targets of all sorts of interesting emaail. I hope the French climbing team don't want us to sponsor them as well. Anyone care to translate? L'info Montagne-Escalade www.ffme.fr - numero 5 - mars 2001 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- SKI ALPINISME : - Championnats de France : victoires de Pierre Gignoux-Stéphane Brosse et Valerie Ducognon-Delphine Oggieri qui remportent le titre national. http://www.ffme.fr/ski-alpinisme/actualite/2001/03chtfrance.htm - 16em Pierra Menta Tivoly : decidemment imbattables cette saison, Stephane Brosse - Pierre Gignoux remportent la Pierra Menta Tivoly. Chez les filles, c'est le duo helvetico-italien Alexia Zuberer-Gloriana Pellissier qui s'impose. Les 4 etapes, photos et resultats sur : http://www.ffme.fr/ski-alpinisme/actualite/2001/pierramenta/index.htm - Pratique, un dossier complet sur les systemes de cotations utilises en ski-alpinisme. http://www.ffme.fr/ski-alpinisme/cotation/index.htm -- RAQUETTES A NEIGE : Rebondissement sur la derniere etape de la Coupe de France de Raquettes a neige a Thones, qui comptait egalement pour le championnat de France. Benoit Laval, qui fait une fin de saison superbe s'empare de la Coupe et du titre. Chez les femmes, Christiane Lacombe qui a domine cette saison s'empare egalement du titre et de la Coupe de France http://www.ffme.fr/raquette/actualite/2001/03master.htm -- ESCALADE SUR GLACE : Daniel Dulac remporte l'etape de Kirov et s'adjuge la Ice World Cup de Glace. Liv Sansoz avec sa victoire en Russie et en remportant 4 des 5 étapes mondiales, s'offre une tres belle seconde place au classement final, derriere l'autrichienne Ines Paper. http://www.ffme.fr/glace/actualite/2001/03kirov.htm Resume de la saison glace : http://www.ffme.fr/glace/index.htm -- ESCALADE Les grands rendez-vous 2001 http://www.ffme.fr/escalade/actualite/2001/rdv.htm -- ACTUALITE Retrouvez toute l'actualite (revue de presse, rendez-vous, livres, news...) http://www.ffme.fr/actualite/index.htm -- VIE LOCALE Retrouvez les sites des Comites FFME et toutes les informations locales http://www.ffme.fr/cdcr/index.htm (avec les nouveaux venus : CD64, CR bourgogne, CD89, CD71, CD58, CD21...) -- FOND D'ECRAN Votre ordinateur devient plus agreable avec les fonds d'ecrans montagne-escalade : http://www.ffme.fr/photo/fondecran/index.htm -- et toujours, les calendriers : formations : http://www.ffme.fr/formation/index.htm competitions escalade : http://www.ffme.fr/escalade/competition/calendrier/calendrier.pdf courses de ski-alpinisme : http://www.ffme.fr/ski-alpinisme/competition/calendrier/index.htm les raids sportifs : http://www.ffme.fr/raid/competition/calendrier/calendrier.pdf stages jeunes uiaa : http://www.ffme.fr/jeune/index.htm -- ESPACE ASSOCIATIONS fonds documentaire pour les dirigeants d'association http://www.ffme.fr/espace-association/index.htm -------------------------------- numero 5 - mars 2001 -------------------------------- pour abonner un ami : http://www.ffme.fr/index.htm information Federation Francaise de la Montagne et de l'Escalade : info@ffme.fr - 01 40 18 75 50 - 8-10 quai de la marne 75019 paris webmaster : wffme@ffme.fr __________ Pour vous désabonner: http://www.yourmailinglistprovider.com/unsubscribe.php?ffme Hébergé par http://www.yourmailinglistprovider.com

huh? wa happund?

Dear sir! I am an Ukrainian Climbing Team manager. I have some propositions to Cascade Climbers. Some words about proposition... The best Ukrainian climbers will compete at the following famous climbing competition in US this year: April - PBC, Phoenix Bouldering Contest, Phoenix, AZ more than 500 competitors, the biggest climbing comp in the world; July - Gorge Games, Oregon like ESPN X Games is one kind of eXtreme Games; and certainly August - ESPN Summer X Games, Philly is prestigious climbing comp that will be relayed by ESPN on all US territory; There is only one problem. All climbers have not enough money for this trips. That is why I propose you to sponsor any trip of few (from 1 to 3) athletes partly. Personally the climbers will represent the company at this comps and all Ukrainian national comps during this year. P.S. I can send abstracts of the best athletes results. Best regards, XXXXXX XXXXXXX. mailto:XXXXXX@XXXX.vostok.net

In wake of today’s incident with a certain user, where I may or may not have overreacted (it’s the Eminem music I tell you), I just like to remind people about why these boards are here and how to properly use them. This isn’t meant to bitch at anyone, just some observations from us and other people we have talked to. This site was created so climbers could share their experience on routes, with gear, with retailers along with aiding in people finding partners, buying/selling used gear, etc etc etc. For the most part this is what happens, but on a few occasions things get out of control and the flames start flying. This sucks for us because we have to find a way to deal with it appropriately. It sucks for you because what could have been a really productive conversation was ruined because of some stupid remark. I know everyone likes to goof around here, especially at work, I know I’m guilty of it, but when people put senseless stuff on the boards with no motive but to draw attention to the post/themself, it really detracts from the value and usefulness of the site. This includes things like comments where gender, sexual orientation, race, etc are used in a potentially offensive manner. I know this has only happened on a few occasions, and I too may be guilty of doing it, but I hope people are a little more respectful of others. This includes flaming some poor shmo for asking a stupid/not so stupid question or telling about his day full of errors in the mountains. I’m not saying people can’t converse and joke around, just be careful with what you say and make sure it's in a way that couldn't be misconstrued. Another thing that has been brought to my attention by a number of users is the usefulness of route reports and gear reviews. When you post and just say the route is “In” or not doesn’t really tell people much because that is based on you perception, experience, and where you made that call. What may look like crap to you might be what another person lives for. Another example is “I climbed Butthead Peak today, it was really sunny, the view was tremendous” end of post. Again, not too helpful, leaving out things like how the approach is, any potential obstacles or things to watch for, what gear might be needed. How bout this “Yeah I bought some of those new nuts by Dez and they freakin rock.” Why do you like them though? This is especially helpful when people talk about boots, rock shoes, and packs where body type is a factor. By being thorough in your reports/reviews you are helping people in the present and future make decisions on climbs and gear. I know cases like this rarely happen, and usually people write incredible reports that include pictures, links, etc. Assuming this site stays up many years to come like we want it to, people being able to tap into this vast amount of stored info put up by the its very own users is so valuable it’s both exciting and hard to imagine. I hope you all agree. Thanks for taking the time to read this as I felt it was an opportune time as any raise these issues. If you have any comments/concerns/complaints/bitches/suggestions please feel free to fire them our way, or if you would like to add anything I’ll leave the thread open. Thanks for helping make this site so successful. -Jon Flame Patrol Chief intensity@cascadeclimbers.com

Here is another interesting story I have found at CNET. It's not about access issues, but talks about how Congress is so inundated with email that they ignore most of them. I bet if I sent them a few with the Kournakova virus I’d get their attention. Probably should put the link, surry I'm not too smart. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-5173083.html?tag=st.cn.1.lthd [This message has been edited by jon (edited 03-19-2001).]

POW!!!!! http://www.lowaboots.com/ Google search never fails.

Greg- I totally agree with you. I think it is important for everyone to find out the facts for themselves and not rely on one source of information. One thing I disagree on though is that we are a small group. I think the more people become aware it will turn out to be a very large group, especially here in the PacNW. Here is a recent link to a PI article http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/connelly/joel09.shtml There are also some Times articles about the Forest Pass, most involving a black minister from Seattle who protests at the Alpental parking almost everyweekend during the summer, I forgot his name though.

The revenue from user fees is sooo insignificant to the amount of money that is required to manage forest service land. How on earth is this supposed to makeup for Congress’s brilliant budgetary cuts? It’s not, and that’s the point. This is the strategy of corporate America (a la ARC) to gain access to public lands for their own profit by sponsoring the fee demonstration program. People need to educate themselves on what is going on here and write letters to your Congressmen. I’ve been working on letters myself. Maybe with the help of Ray, I’ll add a section to the Access part of the site dedicated to fee demo information and news. We have to convince Congress there is a better way to manage our public lands, one that works and makes sense for the public rather than some CEO out to get rich.

I was talking to a employee at Vertical World and they have switched from Dave Page for Ramuta. Apparently you can drop off the shoes at VC and they will take care of the rest.

welcome to the team bra. you first assignment is to ski shishapangma backwards naked (well except for the satalite linked helmet cam). i just need your social security number to take out the life insurance policy, you know, in case something happens. the only thing i like about tnf is their bend store where things are hella cheap. if britney was working for us, i'm pretty sure it would be a different kind of website. rodchester would be a business partner for shur. we'd call it www.cascadep%$n.com. alex would register .org and mike would register .net at point it to his own site, alpinep%&n.com.

Hey, I thought it was Tokka Smoke Submersion. Whatever. Full Report: The NWAC reported moderate avalanche danger, on mostly northeast and southeast slopes. Driving into Darrington it appeared as if the weather might cooperate with us. The weather report was for mostly sunny, but I was very skeptical. I’ve lost faith in Steve Pool and pretty much take the average of about 5 reports now. The sun was breaking through the clouds and everything except the upper most part of Whitehorse was visible. After contemplating whether we should bring the snowshoes or not we left the car at 8 pm. After reaching the snow I was very glad we brought the snowshoes. The first 30 minutes of the Niederprum trail kicked my butt. I’ve been sick for the last couple of weeks, plus the fact that you start straight up without warming the muscles up didn’t help either. We first reached snow at the first rock gully crossing (2800 ft ?). There was enough snow that the brush was mostly buried which helped in crossing. The second gully leading up to Lone Tree Pass was completely covered, and was fairly easy to ascend, especially when Tim broke trail the whole time, which he actually didn’t. The snow was very hard with saturated crystals and was a result of rain/warming then overnight cooling after the latest snowfall. Following Tim I noticed there were small slabs two to three inches thick with a light sliding layer underneath. Higher in the gully where we able to see where we were to cross to ascend to the pass and noticed a pretty large debris path We decided to skirt the gully on the right partially through the trees and enter higher up. Closer examination of the debris revealed that it was a pretty recently slide, likely within the last 24 hours. About this time the fog rolled in and not before long visibility sucked and it was snowing lightly so we got under a tree and to wait it out and have a bite to eat (Just below 4400 ft). While talking about Britney, the ethnic music at Mickey D’s, and moving to Bend we heard a rumbler higher up on Whitehorse. Between not being able to see crap and not wanting to get buried we decided to turn around. I was just glad to get outside, though I feel like crap again. Where’s the Sudafed….. [This message has been edited by jon (edited 03-10-2001).]