jon

Holly, I'll add a link today later where you can retrieve your old messages, they aren't gone yet don't worry. Cavedude and Sprayshaw, one of the new features is the ability to add Graemlins (aka emoticons) send me a list on the ones you likey.

Wow good thing I've got beer. So the private message thing has changed. Unfortunately your inbox link is no longer on the main forum page, to access it you need to go to my profile. I'll see if we can change this. You do get an email with the message unless you uncheck this feature in the my profile page. [ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: jon ]

Ok, here is a problem people will have to fix on their own, which I screwed up on in the upgrade. In the prior registration there was a field for Yahoo email addresses. In the new version of the message board you can have your login name and your displayed name, and because we hacked the old thing there is some confusion in the program it displaying your yahoo name as your display name instead. Sorry.

So the major part of the message board upgrade is complete. There are still a few odds and ends that need to be fixed, like the who's online scripts and active topics, as well as some dead links throughout the site. If you come across and problems that don't deal with your personal account post them here, like broken links and such. If you have an account probmlem send and email to climb@cascadeclimbers.com .

At 11pm tonight (wednesday) the message board will be turned off for a major software upgrade.

I've got Lowe Alpine half bibs that I bought a couple of years ago. They are the Triple Point stuff and are really light, and are a lot cheaper than the Gore Tex. Reinforced ankles, full side zips and really cool suspender buckle makes them really easy to take on and off. What I like best about having light weight bibs is that they work well in the warmer winter conditions we see here.

Bremerton 5934 State Highway 303 NE. Bremerton, WA 98311 Phone 360.373.6676 verticalworld3@mindspring.com I'm a little curious why they opened one in Bremerton and not Tacoma. My bud who has been setting some routes there says it's very nice though, with higher walls than the other gyms.

This will eventually find it's way into a page with the others but I thought I'd post it for those who are interested. Jon ---------------------------------------- The Access Fund: "Securing your Climbing Future" http://www.accessfund.org/ Virtual Times #13 October 2001 Submissions/comments for the Virtual Times are welcome via email to mailto:info@accessfund.org ___________________________________________ IN THIS ISSUE: 1. Access Fund Work Helps Reduce Fee Demo Extension from Four Years to Two Years and Increase Appropriations for Land Agencies 2. Access Fund Grants Program Grants awarded in fourth cycle - October 2001 3. Access Fund Appeals Climbing Closure at the Road 18 Caves Near Bend, Oregon 4. Adopt-a-Crag 2001 5. Access Fund "Crazy" for Crazy Creek Chairs Sale! ___________________________________________ 1. Access Fund Work Helps Reduce Fee Demo Extension from Four Years to Two Years and Increase Appropriations for Land Agencies ___________________________________________ On October 10, the House and Senate Interior Appropriations Subcommittees extended the Recreation Fee Demonstration Program ("Fee Demo") for two years instead of the four years initially proposed. This scaling back of Fee Demo is a victory resulting from concerted lobbying efforts by the Access Fund, the Outdoor Industry Association, American Whitewater, American Hiking Society, American Alpine Club, Outward Bound, and others. Fee Demo imposes fees on certain recreational users of lands managed by the federal land management agencies. This is not an entrance fee but a use fee for simply walking, paddling, climbing, fishing or biking on public lands. The Fee Demo program was intended to supplement, not supplant, the general appropriations approved by Congress to support our public lands. Fee Demo, however, has been plagued with problems related to implementation, agency accountability, and equity. Furthermore, public support for the program has decreased considerably. The Access Fund opposes the implementation of use fees to access wilderness areas and other backcountry sites where administrative support is neither required nor desired by recreationists. Therefore, there should be no "pay-to-play" where "playing" costs nothing. America's national parks, forests, wildlife refuge, recreation areas and open spaces are the heritage of every citizen and access to these lands must be preserved. Importantly, Congress should provide funding for the necessary protection and maintenance of our public lands through annual budget appropriations. Congress initially authorized Fee Demo in 1996 for a three-year test period. Following this "test" Congress extended the program for successive one-year periods, and recently Congress proposed another larger four-year extension. However, after strenuous input by human-powered recreationists opposing the four-year extension, Congress agreed to two years. Congress specifically "provided this extension to allow the authorizing committees with jurisdiction to continue their assessment of this program and to provide for a permanent solution to this issue." Furthermore, Congress strongly encouraged "the agencies implementing this program to focus on public service, work closely with local communities and the recreational industry, and to use the receipts to enhance visitor services and reduce the backlog in deferred maintenance." Significantly, the FY 2002 Interior Appropriations bill also increased general appropriations to the federal land management agencies as advocated by the Access Fund and others. While the human-powered recreation community succeeded in limiting the extension of Fee Demo and increasing general appropriations, there is more work to be done. Jason Keith, AF Policy Analyst, attended the September 25, 2001 Oversight Hearing on Fee Demo held by the House Subcommittee on Forests & Forest Health, submitted testimony for that hearing. Also he lobbied Congress about restructuring the Fee Demo program to reflect the policy position of the Access Fund. There is reason to believe that some congressional members may be inclined to sponsor such a bill. The Access Fund has also been working on the use fee issue with lobbyists at the DC firm of Higgins, McGovern & Smith, LLC to keep backcountry and wilderness areas free of charge. ___________________________________________ 2. Access Fund Grants Program Grants awarded in fourth cycle - October 2001 ___________________________________________ The Access Fund utilizes your membership dollars to fund projects that preserve or enhance climbing opportunities and conserve the climbing environment. Access Fund grants approved for the fourth and final funding cycle in 2001 totaled $29,339 and were distributed to support five separate projects organized by local climbing organizations, public agencies, and land trusts. Overall, the Access Fund received 27 applications for project funding in 2001. Out of these requests, 20 projects received funding totaling $70,250. For information on how to apply for a grant in 2002 - see the Access Fund website http://www.accessfund.org. a. Saddle Park Boulders Acquisition, CA. $5,000 to the Truckee Donner Land Trust to preserve access to Saddle Boulders. The preservation of this bouldering area is part of a 2,500-acre expansion to Donner Memorial State Park. The project will more than double the size of the Park, protect Schallenberger Ridge (a stunning backdrop to Donner Lake) and ensure continued access to Saddle Boulders. The bouldering is on steep granite, has potential for scores of problems of varying difficulty and offers a welcome alternative to the popular nearby Donner Summit. Total budget for this project stands at $4,422,300. b. Solar composting toilet for the Trapps climbing area of the Mohunk Preserve, NY. $10,000 to the Mohunk Preserve for installation of a solar composting toilet in the Trapps climbing area. This sum was matched with an additional $10,000 from an Access Fund Board of Directors member. The unit will be installed on Undercliff Carriage Road and is targeted for spring 2002. This popular area receives over 55,000 visits per year, with an average of 600-800 climbers per weekend day. Until now the Preserve has maintained portable toilets. Installation of a permanent solar-composting facility will eliminate the environmental impacts created by large trucks servicing the unit as well as damage caused by their weight to the Preserve's historic carriage roads. The total budget for this project is $31,710. c. Salt Lake City Climbing Areas Access Brochure, UT $3,389 to the newly formed group, Salt Lake Climbers Alliance for a 16 panel, color brochure, which will contain quality photographs and a map pinpointing locations for rock, ice and alpine climbing as well as bouldering. The brochure will provide information to climbers on climbing locations in the Salt Lake City Wasatch region as well as details on access requirements and Leave No Trace practices. The project has received tremendous support from the local community with well-known photographers, locally based manufacturers, climbing gyms and land managing agencies. The total project budget is $11,514. Climbers should look for the glossy brochure in February 2002. d. BLM Bishop Bouldering Management Project, CA $9,750 to the Bureau of Land Management Bishop field office to help towards bouldering management and resource protection on the Volcanic Tablelands. This area includes the popular bouldering areas the Happy and Sad Boulders and the newly established Pleasant Valley Campground. Funds will be directed towards a number of projects, which include campground maintenance, education, outreach and cultural resource surveys. The BLM are anticipating 14,000 climbing visitors to this fragile high desert area this season. Funds directed towards these projects will reduce vehicle and camping impacts on the Tablelands while supporting climbing access. The total project budget stands at $34,000. e. Study on climber abilities to assess the difficulty of novel routes, MN. $1,200 to Hamline University to survey climbers' abilities to estimate route difficulty. Photographs will be shown to climbers who will then determine the grade of the routes shown. Supplementary data on age, sex, and experience levels will also be gathered. The resulting data will help land managers and climbing advocacy groups more accurately determine the ecological impacts of climbers on cliff systems based on predictions of route choice. Researcher and climber, Dr Mike Farris, who has previously published in science journals on climbing and vegetation issues, will carry out the project. The total project budget is $4,000. ___________________________________________ 3. Access Fund Appeals Climbing Closure at the Road 18 Caves Near Bend, Oregon ___________________________________________ On October 11, 2001, the Access Fund filed an administrative appeal of a US Forest Service (USFS) decision for the Road 18 Caves near Bend, Oregon to remove bolted routes, ban chalk use and prohibit any type of climbing in Hidden Forest Cave. The decision failed to provide any evidence that climbing should be treated differently than uses such as caving and hiking, which remain permitted. Some of these other activities make use of ladders, handrails, and other metal implements far greater in size, visibility, and damage to the natural resource than climbing bolts. The USFS Decision was based primarily on feedback from the Confederated Tribes of the Warm Springs, which "hold Hidden Forest Cave in high regard as a spiritual site." The Access Fund supports the management of recreational uses of public lands to balance Native American religious and cultural concerns with recreational opportunities and the Constitutional rights of all visitors. The Access Fund works to educate climbers about Native American spiritual values and encourage them to respect these values by voluntarily not climbing during ceremonial periods and other significant times. However, we do not support mandatory restrictions on climbing based on Native American religious concerns unless there is compelling evidence that climbing violates these concerns. The Road 18 Caves are a unique climbing resource, unlike any other climbing area in the United States. The climbing takes place only on the walls and ceilings of the mouths of several caves where natural light penetrates. The Access Fund has been closely involved with the planning process for the Road 18 Caves Environmental Assessment. We offered funding to pay for scientific studies of climbing impacts, and for resource improvement/restoration projects. The Access Fund and local climbers previously supported the closure of one cave for the re-establishment of a bat colony. We also endorsed a variety of management responses that would protect cave resources while permitting some limited climbing in the Road 18 Caves. However, the Forest Service's eleventh-hour switch from a position favoring retention of some climbing opportunities to elimination of climbing was made without sufficient objective analysis of relative recreational impacts and is fundamentally unfair. ___________________________________________ 4. Adopt-a-Crag 2001 2nd Annual Adopt-a-Crag Day declared a success! ___________________________________________ Climbers and volunteers across the United States celebrated the 2nd annual Adopt-a-Crag day at 67 areas in 25 states. Over 2,000 people united to build and restore 150 miles of trail and clear thousands of bags of trash from crags. Erosion control and trash removal remained the focus of most events this year as climbers worked side by side with land managers in this nationwide climbers stewardship event. Areas saw improvements in trail maintenance and construction, chalk clean-ups, regrading of switchbacks, building of retaining walls, clearing of drainages and water bar construction, re-rocking of parking areas, mulching and stabilization of belay areas, cliff top enhancment, anchor replacement and much more. Most events listed the enhanced public relations with land managers and image of climber as their number one success. Adopt-a-Crag Day is aimed at educating the climbing community about the importance of stewardship and of teaching climbers the skills needed to maintain their local climbing areas. Major highlights included: Hammond Pond, MA - over 90 volunteers between the ages of three and 65 participated in Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Hampshire and Massachusetts to improve trails, mitigate erosion and trash removal. Particpants learned about Leave No Trace and were encouraged to write action letters to Congress regarding Fee Demo. Independence Pass, CO - climbers worked in conjunction with the Forest Service and the Independence Pass Foundation at the International Outdoor Festival in Aspen Colorado to plant 170 trees on a steep slope at 11,600' below the road (all 12 volunteers are now current members after the tree planting). Palisades Park, AL - 41 very organized climbers joined together to clean up this park just outside of Birmingham, AL. These project involved and strengthened relationships with the park employees, board and park superintendent. Adopt-a-Crag of the Year Award 2001 - Adirondack Adopt-a-Crag. This event was a collective effort, which utilized 61 people at two major crags in the Adirondack State Park. Josh Baker from Colgate University and Heather Hibbard, Access Fund Regional Coordinator, were the main organizers. The success of this event hinged on the overwhelming support by the volunteers and the Mountaineer, Adirondack Rock and River, Lake Placid EMS retailers. Many students from five area universities began driving at 5am in order to reach the event by 8:30am. Five crews worked on 1000+ feet of trail, built rock steps, installed cedar-log revetments and blocked off goat trails. A vertical path leading through a ravine that had become an erosion wash and hazard was staked out and built into a new switch back path. This event is a shining example of the purpose of Adopt-a-Crag day: to bring all aspects of the climbing community together in an event that provides grassroots support and activism at local climbing areas. ___________________________________________ 5. Access Fund "Crazy" for Crazy Creek Chairs Sale! ___________________________________________ **Members ONLY!** Access Fund Crazy Creek chairs are now on sale for a low $30. Please specify navy, green or purple. Contact 303-545-6772 (x106) to order while supplies last! For other Access Fund merchandise, please click http://www.accessfund.org/merchandise/merchandise_afgear.html ___________________________________________ Virtual Times Policies: 1. The Access Fund office in Boulder is the only source of outgoing messages to the lists. 2. The AF will not sell or give away email addresses, and there will be no outside advertising in the V-Times. 3. V-Times will focus on important news pertaining to the Access Fund and climbing community. 4. V-Times is an announcement-only e-mail list; therefore, you cannot reply to any of the list members. 5. All e-mail addresses will remain confidential with every mail sent.

Thanks Pope. I closed that thread because the last 10 posts where people just talking smach to each other, if they want to do that they can use the private messages or email, otherwise they might as well just not post it. Pretty unfortunate for such an interesting thread, go ahead and continue the converstation here, here's the link to the old one as well. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001070.html

Thread closed. I'm freaking serious.

No this isn't grey market stuff. This is the real deal, just without the USA warrantee. It's the same as buying climbing equipment from Europe, take out the american middleman and the price becomes reasonable. I've actually never bought any photo equipment from overseas, though I have bought some 35mm stuff from the East Coast and no some good and really bad places.

quote: Originally posted by pope: Medium/large format photography. Any hot tips from the pros? Pope, not a pro just know a little about this and that. Don't buy medium format equipment in US, get it from Asia or Europe where it's half the price, I've heard good things about this place. http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/mamiya.htm There are some good places to take classes like

Bronco if you want to catch a steelhead I know this guy. I caught a huge fish my first time out with him. Send me a PM if you want his name, he's the best steelhead guide in the world.

Dru I give ski lessons for beer!

I'm in the middle of a very good book about the Vietnam war called "The Ravens". Ravens were an elite group of pilots that were Forward Air Controllers(FACS) working for the CIA flying convert ops over Laos in a secret war. What these guys did was aboslutely insane.

I want to add to my earlier statements. As I said before what I think is a good example of what could happen is what happened to the mountain biking here and in other areas. Two places that saw significant shut downs were Tiger mountain and the Redmond watershed. The watershed had endless incredible single track. First timers going there not being familiar with the area would ride for what seemed like hours riding all over lost but in bliss until they found their way to a road to find their way to the car. It was heaven and only a few minutes away. As it became more popular neighbors started to complain and eventually the Redmond City Council decided to ban mountain bikers even with the user groups pleading. Now if you drive through Novelty Hill you will see endless housing developments, large roads, and traffic that wasn’t there only a few years ago when the we were banned. They have now closed the watershed to all use because of the environmental impact. The same happened on Tiger, but it was the hiking and horse user groups that shut most of the trails down there, citing environmental impact. Funny thing is the state logs the mountain for timber to support schools, which I’m pretty sure has a greater impact than a couple of tires rolling through the woods. Most of the trails in the Seattle area are kept open by a hard working user group, which have had to build most of the trails for us to ride on but for everyone to use. So why is this example important to the discussion? First, if our voice isn’t big enough and heard, than the same could happen to our crags. There are groups out there that want to shut down climbing areas, if there wasn’t there would be a need for an Access Fund. As climbing becomes increasingly popular, like mountain biking did in the early 90’s, we will be increasingly noticed as well as our impact, giving ammunition for these anti-climbing groups. We can either ban together and be heard and have our responsibility noticed or we can have our little factions of sport climbers and traditionalists or whatever that have no clout and don’t get a whole lot done. The voice of the group is exponentially proportional to the number of people in it. Look at the NRA for instance. Whether you agree with them or not they get shit done, they’ve got money and they have power and they get their way. Bickering about bolts as important as issue as it may be won’t get us anywhere, because while we are arguing what is ethical someone who isn’t a climber is deciding it for us, like what is happening with the wilderness bolting issue. These are problems that need to be solved within the group and the only way to do that is to have control of the situation, which means a united, large, strong user group. We may not all agree on bolts or whatever but we all agree on one thing, our right to go climbing. Second, I think you have to look beyond the rock and to the area itself. You can’t just show you care about the pitches of rock, you have to show you care about the whole area, which mean conservation of it. Some people think 38 is a cool place for its proximity to the metro area, but it wouldn’t be very cool if the all the trees are chopped down by whom ever owns it. I’m sure there are other areas that fit in this category. I have a strange tendency to write a lot so I’m going to stop and hopefully in all my babble there was something resembling a coherent argument, but there is one more thing. People can make fun of this website all they want, cascadesprayers blah blah blah, no legends posting whatever, I don’t really care. When Tim and I came up with the idea for this thing we had some ideas and some goals, and one of those was to hopefully make a contribution and provide a place for people to discuss issues like these so we can hopefully continue to enjoy our passion, climbing. I for one really wanted to have a place where people could find out what issues were affecting our crags and I’ve tried hard to do that with some obstacles. I think I’ve succeeded with the fee demo information; I need to work harder to get Access Fund info from them. Point being we’re providing one of the tools that is necessary for the type of endeavor mattp is suggesting, but it can’t just be limited to this, it’s definitely a start to get the word out, but it’s meaningless unless we actually go out and do something. Christ this is long, sorry! Jon

I think uniting is going to be key here. While we bicker about bolts we're going to lose our right to climb at areas. It won't be about bolt or no bolt, it will be climb or no climb. I'll choose climb. After being witness to what has happened to the locol mt. biking community over the last 10 years, where we have lost a lot of sweet single track mainly to a bunch of ignorant city councilmen while the trail club is bending over backwards to keep whats left, protecting our rights to our crags is something we can't ignore. I think this needs to start with a bigger Access Fund presence in this state, having more reps easing the burden on Andy Fitz.

I got the whole sexy choco moondancing thing, I was trying to turn it around on you, did you get what I said? We'll have to have Timmaaay show you what a cats brain is.

Uhhhh, if you play for that team I guess. Hey Lizard Brain ever see a cats brain before?

Turtle head is popping out

BTW for those who don't know the drive is much quicker from the Seattle area if you drive I-90 to Ellensburg, south through Yakima and down 97. And I'm not talking minutes, you'll save seriously hours if traffic on I-5 is bad. Last time we ran into some people at a motel who left Everett 3-4 hours earlier than us and we got there at the same time.

Dude I'm so disappointed you don't know this! http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/3477/dave/

I think you missed the point. "Get out the mayo and rye bread grandma it's a grand salami!" Come on you have to know who says "My Oh My!"

Who says "My Oh My"?! Dude your joking right? Do we have to start making fun of your name again! [This message has been edited by jon (edited 10-15-2001).]

Charlie- That's the area. I've heard a little about it being privately owned land from a friend. Though I don't agree with this guys course of action I think the liability of this area needs to be addressed if it hasn't. From what I heard about that area the people who set the routes spent a considerable amount of time cleaning launching refridgerator sized blocks off by crowbar. My impression of my one visit there was WEAR A FREAKING HELMET. I'm not sure if I will visit it again because of the potential rockfall hazard. Anyways, whatever this guys intention is he's not representing the climbing community, he's just leaving the repercussions for us to deal with.