billcoe

Since it's pretty much straight opinions it's going to be 100 percent spray. I have nothing to add. _________________________________________________________ OW, you will be happy to know that when Googled, "Pat Robertson had sex with my younger brother" the top 2 links are your posts on CC.com.

You were 5 pretend people on the site ? Wow. I'm wondering if you feel stupid now and that's why you are quiting? Some other reason? You left some pearls of wisdom, take care dude.

HUH? You watching porn again?

Maybe Bryan, but I'm starting to get a head cold/sore throat, and if I get out there, I might just hang by myself so as not to contaminate everyone.

Looking outside right now? No rain. yet...... Looks like VW 4ever will be there too eh, and congrats you've exceeded 30000 views John. Tents in the mail most likely. PS, saw Kirby the other day! You should suck him into your Wednesday black hole

Not much after you dump it in a river with a few rocks inside and walk away. Besides: Didn't you guys already have those discusions about a Bear and a Bull, and a Shark and a ...something else I forget.

"Children's Cowboy Boots - Justin Youths Lace-up Boots - Black...Let your youngster loop, swoop and pull with a pair of Justin junior Lace-Rs. Durable enough to outlast the roughest buckaroo, these lacers are..." Whats wrong with a double fishermans?

WTF?

That's freaking hilarious!

I thought the real guidebook will be coming out soon.

Oh I'd better just sit down quietly. Take care all

Should have said Yos and Tuolumne I guess Rudy. No one would confuse this area with anything in Calif. I suspect. I believe Bacher wouldn't even piss off the top of this little crag as far as that goes but Yerian might. Different strokes for different folks as it applies to areas.

Someone PMed me to ask what was going on here. By now it sounds like Chuck K must have enough info to make an informed decision on his origonal question. I'm a little surprised by Markd's posts. I have a lot of respect for what he's been doing and the level he climbs at and the routes he's put up. -but- Concerning the area in question that hijacked Chucks thread. I might have been the 3rd person to climb out there (as far as I know). Went out couple of times, we did some trad lines from the ground up, no previewing, inspection etc (although Jim may have rappelled all over the place when he first found it), no bolts in any route or or top for anchors. We walked back around from the top to the base and belayed off of trees at the top for anchors. Between the loose rock, dirt, poison oak and unascetic nature of the rock, somewhat a lack of cracks I guess - my memory is that very little was done out there until fairly recently. With the addition of bolts, there is here-to-for lots of real sweet climbs where before there was none or near none that anybody really wanted to do. I'm not a sport climber. Not a gym climber either. To me, this area looks like a significantly better place for the efforts. Those efforts have been top down, cleaning and rock removal, and bolts have been well thought out and well placed. Bolts have their place, and that place is obviously not everywhere. Places like on glacier point apron. And here. Bolts fit in well at this cliff with it's general lack of cracks (I said general, there are some cracks yes, I've done some) and it's variety of nice incut face holds. Argueing a bolt here or a bolt there to me, or even lots of bolts here or there, doesn't detract from the fact that for all climbers, this place is better off for many reasons. I drove past on Sat. coming back in after climbing some sweet cracks a little further out. We did 6 routes and none of them had bolts on the routes. (anchors on top) It seems like there are plenty of lonely quiet little places around without bolts if somebody wants to head there. I've heard maybe 2 people concerned that Kev will now start bolting at Beacon. I'm sure that is not the case and it's not what is being discussed here either. So with that I say, good job Kevin, Stewart, Josh, Mark and anyone else spending time and energy fixing that place up. I think JimmyO has even taken to almost living in the area. I'd also like to thank everybody for not being pissed at me as I understand that the bolts I gave JimmyO for another place were given to Kevin and used here. Sad to say, I expect that the next step will be wild popularity followed later by a closure. But what can you do? That's my take on it. It sure looks like everyone has a different viewpoint. Since you are all good people, at least we can have this discussion respectfully and with tact eh? Sorry about the thread hijack Chuck! I don't expect it to slow up anytime soon, but these guys are figuring it out.

Hola crimper. You getting paid by the word? Interesting points, all valid and well thought out. I really thought Royal Robbins had some well thought out points about this as well, several of which you mention above. But so the board knows, anyone wants to add bolts on any climb I've ever done have at it. I probably should have done it earlier but was too lazy. Anyone who's ever climbed with me knows this. Conversely, I will never add a bolt to an existing line for the reasons crimper described above. You can usually just meander down the way and find a safe, well crafted route somewhere close, if you are looking for that. (or often just toprope the line like Crimper mentioned). I'd like to see folks just generally show respect for history, others and location. Smith and Yosemite, for instance, have had wildly divergent development issues and attitudes. I just climbed a great new bolted route at Smith (5.8) with John F and PDK where we were basically skipping every other bolt (or 2 ) and running pitches together as well. You'd never see that kind of thing, and would not want to see the acrimony, of a rap-bolted route which may in fact even be overbolted by Kevins standards (it almost seemed that there are bolts at your feet and waist and you can clip another one standing right there), at a place like Yos. I love trad, but I have to admit I liked the Wayyyyyyy overbolted 5.8. It was good movement and body feel and we were moving effecintly as 3. Very enjoyable day and route. Just skip the bolts you don't want to clip I guess. I think the rock police just wore me out last decade or 3. Now I just want to climb and would like to see folks respect others. Take care (but thats me, your results may vary): Bill

F* EN A right that was nice on Saturday. Good climbing with ya Bryan.

Concur with the manpris thing. (You might resize the pic BT.) I could never pull that off. Don't have the figure for it. Sweet picture, do you have 3 lead ropes there Erik, if yes, is that some new Austrian technique we don't know about but need to learn?

Ha ha , reading between the lines - way to get er done!

Thanks Kev: I will definately catch you next time. I drove by Saturday @6pm and was thinking of you. Didn't see your vehical though, but I had someone with me who did not know of the area and we were both fairly toasted, crispy and burnt out anyway from a day of climbing and that obligatory single pint of beer at Skamania Lodge. We should hook up before your little one arrives with the winter rains. Say hi to JimO too.

Sorry to have missed you Seth. __________________________________________________________ Turns out that Kirby, Eric(Scheshimi) and Bri (knottygirl) all made it and although a bit dirty a respectable pump and a good time must have been had by all since no one complained. Thanks again so much for the belays! ___________________________________________________________ Feeling a little depressed thinking of Dwight Bishop and every little bit helps. Wife got another dog today and the damn thing is the funniest little gal. It's this small, furry, puppy looking Jack Russell Terrier, just looking at it makes me laugh. _________________________________________________________ 'Nother point: Bryan (Powderhound) = and please don't penalise him 'cause he spells his name incorrectly, he's a good guy. Thanks for the sends and belays and Bryan! Good stuff every which direction. ___________________________________________________________ New thing worth mentioning. Picking up @ the top. Looks like (hopefully) that the beer bottle tossing contest may have been replaced with a vodka drinking one. Found an empty bottle bag and 14 plastic cups, many had vodka residue at the top of the buttress today. Did not see the empty bottle...We might have heard a couple of bottles chucked off just further down @ Phylyx area just as we started climbing though. Not sure, but it sounded like it. I was not able to run to the top this time. __________________________________________________________ John, forgot my camera to take that pic of the car you wanted, sorry. It's not a whole car anyway, just part of the skeleton. Someone pushed it onto the ledge at the top of silver bullet.

Like most of the stuff you write! OMG that's classic. I gotta do some work. See ya all.

I wondered where you went Sean. How the hell does somebody who only weighs 113 # tweak a shoulder? Wide bodied old fellas like me do that kind of thing. Remember that big wide hunk of rock we were digging behind to make it clean? Gone. i plan on being at the bills buttress area at @ 11. Need a belay I don't feel like soloing it. I shit my pants when the boulder I knocked off which hit the huck of rock noted above rumbled down the hill and my underware is still not clean. If you see a red rope over the edge at the Buttress area, rap down and say hi. Don't be worthless, bring a belay device.

I just showed up for the pictures and didn't see any. Grrrrrrrrrrrr.

I think all of us come to this discussion with big blinders on based on our past experinces. FYI, Kev is cleaning and bolting an area with some others where a couple of natural lines were done with nuts for pro early on and nothing else for years and years.......and years. He saw that the dominant ethic of ground up drilling bolts would not work as well in this area as the rap down and "craft" a line that will be enjoyed by many who follow in the later years. They're doing a pretty nice job at it too, I think you'd all really enjoy the area he's developing with a few others if you jumped on some of the routes. BUT, back to the theroretical discussion......I'm not sure there is a correct answer here, BUT one way to sidestep all the arguments and acrimony that always seem to accompany this kind of question is to touch base with one of the old F*eds who put up the origonal line in question and invite them in with you to do the FA of your brand new, "crafted with quality" close to the origonal line variation route, if you get buy in, you're done discussing everything except who gets the sharp end. It still might not be enough for some. When McGowen put up a line 4 feet from the SE Corner slab pitch, a classic trad route at Beacon, the bolts must have lasted 15 min till they were chopped. However, that slab pitch may be one of the best pitches out at Beacon, and was the origonal line up that side, so maybe it's not comparable. Good luck Chuck K!

Not identity theft: I'd seen what looked like "fake" charges from Shell Gas station. One was like $6 and the other like $4. I didn't remember them, but hey, I go to shell, BUT I have an actual Shell card, and this was on my personal credit card, not a gas card. I don't track petty crap so I let it go. Next thing I know I'm getting calls at work (my son got the calls at home and forwarded them to me). "Sir, I'm up here in Canada and we are trying to verify you want to buy one of our servers". "uuuuuhhh, no, I just bought one from Dell last month, don't need another". "Oh, we were suspicious as the call came from Brazil". Next call, same thing except it's a condo in Florida from somebody who'd taken a call from somebody from Brazil. I'm like "Is it a nice one?". Anyway, turns out, the merchant would have been stuck for the fee if the merchandise had shipped and they'ed accepted the call. In fact - the Visa people make money on fraud as they charge a fee to fix it up after the fact and stick any $ lost onto the merchant. I never know that Visa and Mastercharge not only have no or little $ exposure, but an actual $ incentive to see fraud perpetrated till I heard it from 2 vendors during this experience. I lost nothing of course.

You are welcome I'm sure! (spoken in a Steve Martin as 'Wild and Crazy Guy" voice)