billcoe

Oh dude, thats just so sad. I feel so bad for the pain those left behind must be feeling. dshigeno: thanks for sharing the pics. I suspect most of the armchair quarterbacks and critics had no idea of the weather which your pictures show. Class 4 in the rain can often be quite difficult.

I need to get some work hours in Sunday AM. I'll check the clock at 8am and think of you though. Anyone for Butte at @ 11?

I see some hypocracy too Kev, but climbers really get a hell of a lot closer. Lots. Joseph has detailed the bad effects of the biology of proximity above. Mark, what Joseph says it true about last year. BUT, the birds were consistantly seen all around at Beacon last year, feeding on the ledges and flying all around it all of the time, and it was not determined that they were not on the rock. You would think finding the location would be easy, but that is (was) not the case. Same is true for this year as well. Thanks the your efforts and hard work Joseph. You and the entire crew are doing a hell of a job at least looking at this.....well, sorry, thats right, no one else has really jumped in to help, so you are doing a hell of a job by yourself I think I really mean. It's a pain in the ass, I know, the rest of us just want to climb. Sorry, lets get out tomorrow for some easy cracks. Work your shoulder. We'll let the pup run some laps till he's tired and wayyyy happy and then grab the spotting scope and swing by Beacon for some hot bird-on-bird action eh?

___________________________________________________________ Good points. From my view, I'm all over the map on this, and mostly suspect that I'm not right in my views either. I had inadvertantly retrobolted one of the boldest leads done 20 years ago in this area: - which was also lead by me on FA which was just your basic semi-unprotected no pro pitch rated XXX cause if you fall you're just plain fucked route. Unrepeated for 13 years as far as I'm aware. I'd totally forgotten I'd FAed it, then but in some bolts and then Opdycke reminded me of the earlier crazy lead. Somebody was too Fuckin*g stupid (later determined by Moi to be Moi) to have brought a bolt kit I think was the final determination. Point is, nobody climbed it for 13 years. Even I was not so stupid to take another shot at it. After the bolts were in, it really is fun and it gets done fairly often now. Having an additional route there helps spread out the people too, so a good thing all the way around. (For THIS area and THIS route I'm saying) I still get stupidity and boldness mixed up to this day in my personal life. For instance, what is trying to swim across the Columbia river when you have not ever swum that far in your life, but think you should just try it anyway, although the water is a "bit" cold and moving a "bit" fast? Is that bold, or is that just F*ucking stupid? I'm leaning towards both right now. Sometimes I can't decide about routes like that either. For me, if your theroretical route was a rarely climbed route, where "the early pioneers" really did not want bolt as they could not find stances for 1/4 bolts and they were barely hanging on and heading to the next little piss poor crack which may or may not take a #2 RP and they are praying for survival, and the resulting piece of crap wandering poorly protected route was still there: basically unclimbed, getting dirty and avoided by rational people. I'd say, bolt your variation for sure. It's a variation, not rebolting "the actual" POS route. BUT, if it's a classic or popular climb, a bold and interesting route that will challenge any leader and make you think: that action would be wrong IMO and of course make some small semi-crazy faction call for Jihad on YOUR ass. Period. (not me I really don't give that much of a fuck) Nobody likes to be on the other end of a Fatwa, so I'd let sleeping dawgs just lie. Best to actually talk to the old timers who are most frequently inhabiting the area. Last time I accidentally "retro-bolted" a route (coincidence only 30 feet left of my earlier accidental rebolt) the bolts were whacked within a week and somebody issued a Fatwa. Really. I heard through the grapevine the retrobolters would be dead if they caught up with them. Technically, someone else put the bolts in and I led it (I actually thought it might go all natual). I'd been eying that line for 15 years, when my buddies said they were going to head out and do it they were kind enough to invite me in on the adventure. But evidently someone did the FA earlier that year, all natural, way runout and not repeated that I've seen without our bolts (which were gone after 4 ascents or so. Your call. I find it very confusing just thinking of my own shit like the storys I just recounted. I can't make a call on a theretical route some where I can't even identify. Who the hell really knows? I'll bet that theres plenty of crazy Fuckers up your way who may be pissed about it, but I'm just guessing of course based on what happens around here. Anyhow, ask the real old f*ucks in your area. Probably best. But I suspect you'd do a hell of a job and improve the damn thing big time is what I'm thinking. It may be safe to say that if you aske 20 climbers this kind of question you can expect to recieve 21 strident and different opinions of what is the correct course to persue. Someone will be pissed, even if they shouldn't be. "So be sure you're right, and then go ahead". (Fess Parker as Dave Crockett) Good luck Chuck K! Bill

Ivan, i may have some time Sunday between 11 and 3, I can check in later to confirm. Should be enough for a serious pump at the butte.

What do you mean, "who's Steve Roper?" Uhhhhh, old climber.

Wallstein: I suggest that the mods replce "Eric's Boss" with "Honemaster" under your name. Majorly nice stuff!

Well join us for Saturday then. You know if a pussy like Moi can get up dem sh*ts you will have no problem. Besides, Powderhound can ropegun all the 5.9's for us. I left a VM for you earlier about this but hand'nt heard. If your shoulder hurts, then you can be the official Rack Monkee. BTW, just got your VM about the hammer today. Think it was left on the 19th. No worries sir, it's all good. I'll still pay attention when I belay you and not offer the obligatory penalty slack. Now, to the main point: Totally agree with whatever Mike says, I'd want to be like Alex Huber. Hot leather pants and that Fabio look must draw the babes, and the dude can climb on any continant. Anyone else want to be honest, swim upstream and just say they want to be Tommy Caldwell, or maybe get his autograph or sumpin? I once bought Steve Ropers book and he signed it. But I gave it to a friend for letting me stay in his place by Yosemite. OK: he wasn't around to let us in, and he didn't know were were going to crash there, but he'd left the door unlocked while he was gone and we drank his beer for him. True story: "Ordeal by Piton. OK, I'm kidding around: Seriously though, I only have hero worship for Swallows, you know, the birds.

(jack nickolson voice) YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!

I makes you wonder if any of the routes signifigantly changed, kind of like a couple of years ago when the rock fall took out the hiking trail kind of thing. Should be interesting to get up close to see. Wish I had some good "before" pics to compare but I don't. PS, good t see you are suffering in an office like me and not out dicking around. Lets go dick around (Not at Beacon duh) on Sat. I'll call.

Yeah, pretty damn suspicious that he and Iain both disappeared at about the same time. Bet those fuchers are out there cranking and sending and generally having a great time without us. Bastards, how dare they not have to sit here and suffer like me.

Hi Troy: you were clipping stuff on another route, the fixed lead protection (not an anchor) for the stiff route to the left of Blueberry. Blueberry has some great places to put hexes, cams and nuts at the top and bolts are not needed. Any anchor that you build there with any combination of pro is both bomber and set up perfect for rapping with the pro above your waist. Fuenos was laughing at me last year cause despite the fact that each one is totally bomber, I had like 5 points all equalized for my anchor. Major overkill. Just remember to have some gear for it. I might be there tonight if you want to join us. (work dependant for me) As far your point that adding bolts will make any anchor safe, it was pointed out to me that the opposite is in fact the case. Now I seem to notice that it's really true about everywhere I look out there. Without a couple of bolts, the first thing anybody will do at Rocky Butte is tie a piece of webbing or rope to a tree, safely back from the edge of the cliff. Then they go to the cliff edge and set up or build their anchor, already tied in so they do not fall. The webbing will be clipped last to the anchor as added pro to the anchor before they rap down. With bolts in place, notice that most beginners just head directly for those, clip and go. No back up sling tied to a tree. Look at how common this is at the 5.7 flakey old man on Video for example. Every one of those beginners has needlessly exposed themselves to a near death experience trying to balance out, reach out over the yawning void to grab the chains and clip 2 rusty bolts while trying not to grease off that steep hard packed dirt. Yet there is a tree right there which only occasionally is used to tie in before the person clips the chains. I find it unbelievable every time I see it and now that I've thought about it I seem to see it pretty frequently. In 2004 somebody did die right there doing just that. The news reported that 10 people fell off the cliff last year. Most were climbers going for the bolt anchors in the video and silver bullet areas. There was one guy which the news reported claimed that somebody else’s dog jumped out at him and scared him off the cliff, but I suspect he fell into that group which was going for the chains and lost it as well. It’s not uncommon for unprotected climbers to grease off the cliff, and it doesn’t seem to be discriminating between skill and inexperience either. I once carried out one of the most skilled and experienced climbers in Oregon directly to the hospital when he slipped out there. (Broken wrist, ruptured spleen, punctured lung, shock: that kind of thing). Anyhoooo……. I’d like to see no bolts added or chopped at breakfast cracks or Blueberry area as they have not traditionally had them and do not need them, but then, I’d like to see the crack whores, thieves and meth heads go elsewhere too and that doesn’t appear to be happening either. As far as replacing the old rusty crap with new, that might be pretty hard as ¼ bolts are pretty much not in any anchors out there. Maybe we can enlist Josephs help in styling the old stuff out and putting in new, he’s got all the gear for it and the experience too. We should go 100 percent stainless for sure given how wet it is around here. For 3/8 diameter Type 316 stainless chain I recently paid @ $11 a foot. I currently have some 316 SS wedge anchors. The 316 chain proofs out higher than regular 304 (18-8) Stainless. Maybe we should do 1 or 2 of the worst anchors, step back and see what happens. I nominate doing that Flakey Old man pitch first. We might consider moving them closer to the edge so they are easier to get and then digging to make that dirt level so we don’t lose someone else. I like the idea of using the 316 stainless bolts and chains, but it’s damn expensive. I've put some chains on the buttress recently and have thought about it being less safe, but what can you do if people don't want to clip off before stepping right out to the cliff? The brush removal may not be as welcome with everybody out there. Certainly not with the bottle tossers and people throwing the used condoms down on the ground, I have picked up 2 condoms at that spot where Dream Weaver meets Bill’s Buttress area in the last couple of weeks. What the hell are people doing up there anyway to be throwing used condoms down in a public area ? Pretty disgusting. In either case, we should only do real brush removal with the cities blessing. From Johns link, it looks like their interests diverge from us a bit, as they appear to be interested in seeing only the non-native species disappear, like the ivy. But we'll see, we should discuss it with them. I don't want to pull Ivy all day just to get a bit of the brush thinned out. There was a picture of some Roundup posted earlier, which might keep Ivan off of the plantation. Don't spray any on trees of course. John, I love your idea of doing the cleanup regularly, but I’ll probably feel like Ivan does on the plantation. Time is a big premium to me, which is why I often wind up stuck climbing at the butte instead of a real climbing area, cause I can bang out a solid pump in a couple of hours or less and get back to work on Saturday or be a parent. So I would probably commit to less time cleaning than most, but I think it’s an awesome idea. Knottygirl, FYI there was another video monitor tossed off Video Bluff earlier this year. Makes you wonder where all this stuff is coming from. I’ll touch base with the college today and see what they might want to bring to the table. There is a sign next to the road there that says Mazamas and Access fund are doing the “adopt a road”. Maybe contact them?

It's all good hemp. I was just teasing. Might have forgot to add that smiley face.

Yup, it might be a sweet touch. we can take a couple of TV's from the base and plug them in, a junker cooler we can find down in the sh*t pile.....the whole this has amazing potential as a second home as well for visiting climbers who are dirtbagging on the road. We can refer to it as the box, like in "Cool Hand Luke". Maybe we bolt the sh*t out of the car to keep it from moving and we'll see if it gets chopped eh? The tree that fell over gets cut up for firewood and if the fire gets out of hand none of our lazy asses has to be singing spirituals on the plantation trying to hack underbrush. Love it. PS, to all: complaints 'bout the bolt spacing or lack of bolts will only gain you penalty slack and a day locked in the box. I heard some old fat guy (not me, another old fat guy) complaining about "sport climbers" the other day, WFT is with that? I'm thinking the box might have uses for other complainers and whinners too. BTW, none of the bolts @ silver bullet (and Vidceo) have been monkeed that I've seen, heard or read here, and they are looking like old rusty crap. Nice project would be to re-do them with stainless steel IMO. Far as that goes, almost from day 1, there have been 3 SETS of bolts on Mike P's other nice route further down the way, never touched. I usually just clip the top set as backups for the lower set. Whooo Hooo, 4 bolt anchor. All of them have been there untouched for 20 years or so. The Bolts in question people seem to have issues with seem to be retro bolts where there have not been bolts before. I retroed some on Dream weaver and the route next to it 2-4 years ago (studs ends still visible) and they lasted @ 2-3 weeks. I would have asked Mike Pajunas (the FA) for permission, but haven't seen him for like 10-15 years. My bad. I've since met some guys out there who were adamant that adding bolts to a route that has NEVER had bolts for 20-30 years (ie retro-bolting) is a chickenshit and f*ed up thing to do. I did not recount my expeiences with Dream Weaver....understandably. As of last weekend Glenns were still there, as were the new ones on Bill's Buttress. Those are new routes though. I'm sure somebody will step forward pissed off for some other reason soon enough, proving only that can't please everyone and talking to climbers is like herding cats. Edited to add, would a discussion amoungst all PDX climbers, maybe in some kind of Viking Drinking Hall, about what they want the Butte to looks like as a climbing area in 5 years be in order? Or is that too much acrimony and divergent views for 1 room?

Cough cough , I didn't ask.

Whoooo, chain gang, mertit badges, weed wackers and Hookers: U ARE ! DA MAN ! Probably sweep the park and round up the local talent at the same time and get your credit cards back too. Multi-tasking! Great ideas! Lets see if we can round up a clown car and give out free ballons to the kids! (I have a "Clown Car" thread going on Spray BTW) Seriously, you are an "ideas guy, Chuck", good ideas! I'll take a pic of that car for you. I haven't seen it, but Hugh mentioned it earlier too. Think it's down by Silver Bullet. ________________________________________________________ Cobra *iain* Cough *iain* cough: Who really knows, and no confusing the issue with facts around here Iain, this is the internet. BTW, I believe that left field thing is already inhabited by a giant named Ivan. Course he's way out in left field, so there might still be room for some of us too. Regards: B PS to the Mods, can you do something about this, - change of thread title is a clear underhanded attempt to increase views and page counts to get the free tent in the free tent contest. Huh? I did that? Uhhh, sorry.

Johhnnnnnyyyyyyyyy!!! Hola amigo! What would it take? It's gonna take a social director such as yourself. Who wants to step up and be the liaison with the city and make it all above board, organized and legal? PS, someone else, not me I hate that kind of shit. _________________________________________________________ 2nd topic, is that phx climb night? Isn't it still 110 degrees at 10 pm there? Sounds sporty. _________________________________________________________ Check this: if you hang up a bird house, some random bird will find it post haste. Here's your new route being discussed and none of the bolts have been chopped ...... yet. The jury is still holding it's breath on that one though. I need a TOPO ! That Fucking NOLSE is trying to sandbag me again! I was wondering about that tree as well. ______________________________________________________

Wow, she may be a very nice person in person, but that's horrible stuff to be saying if the press is reporting accuratly.

Have we climbed together? I might like to head out there or somewhere, but I'm feeling like cracks which are closer to PDX, closer to the road and easier.... as I'm old and a pussy too. I need to check 2 things. 1st) Is the weather good for the weekend? 2nd) Family schedules and potential conflicts.

Recieved a phone call from the College folks this morning. They take the issue very seriously for many reasons and will look into it. They are not sure if the students are their's however. As they have onsite security 24-7, they may be able to assist somehow. When I had suggested passing out securities phone numbers to regular climbers up there, Mr Jamison wanted to discuss this with the security people first before doing that. Probably presumptious of me to think they want to patrol city property - for free. He said that the Portland Police are happy to show up just to check things out up there. I've always felt you don't call them unless you are stopping a rape or car a break in, but he suggested folks might consider calling them if you feel uneasy with anybody up there. I think someone on this site suggested to me to call and report to the police you saw them throwing beer bottles the next time you see somebody just drinking out there as that would certainly bring the police, but I don't want to lie and say I see something I don't. Sometimes people just want to sit peacefully and have a beer while enjoying the view. Having the conversation brought back a memory of climbing with one of the Portland Bible College security guards, fella named Paul, about 4 years ago. You think climbers have it bad? These guys have to deal with the kind of lowlifes who broke into Loni's car and ripped off her credit card and throw beer bottles just wandering around their property (as it's an open campus) all day long. Paul told me a story of a pastor who walked out of one of the rooms up there intenting to return shortly, when he got back the computers were gone. GONE. (News flash question, did the videos which get tossed off Video Bluff come from the college?) As the brush hides lowlife activities and behaviors, anyone want to thin it out I say go for it. The city has rules and regs for this kind of thing, don't know who would be the arbitrator of this though or who you'd touch base with for approvals. In environmetal areas, they insist that any tree larger than 4" in diameter be left alone, and Ivy is an invasive species which strangles the trees and should be pruned back and ripped out. Don't know the rest. I think about 5 years ago, someone really trimmed the hell out of the area, especially next to the road. It might even have been the city. At the time I felt a little out of sorts about it, but now I fully understand it - you can see some of the little dead 1-2" stumps still there, but it seemed to grow right back anyway this being Oregon and all. You'd think that the city and the fire dept would encourage clearing out the fire starter and smaller brush as well, I see homeless having an odd campfire down below occasionally. Mayby one of you wants to be pro-active and organize a volenteer brush clearing day and contact the city parks dept and see what rules are in place and resources they can add to this kind of thing. Maybe not. Anyway, that's your update. I don't know the answers. I don't even know if I have the questions. I suspect that if the college had a clear view of the top of the cliff there would be a hell of a lot less problems. I know some people have big issues with change and with civilazation coming and they don't even want the poison oak removed. I guess I can sympathise some with that attitude. That's all I have.

No sir. I suspect that there are people who find Hobo spiders interesting as well. OK, I find it fascinating that you can scare them and they will run towards you. As one of the worlds fastest spiders, and able to run up your leg under you pants while frightened and then bite you, it's increadibly interesting. They really are fascinating. However, there are craploads of spiders out there which don't cause the problems these lil fellas do. So kill all of them as well. Every damn one. If even 1 parent should lose a child who dies of a Hobo bite it's one too many. BTW, sprays are not suppose to be effective (in fact there may be evidence it is counterproductive allowing them to flourish) for these damn things as it kills non-lethal competitors as well. Be that as it may, I see one, bye-bye. That's my 2 issues. Love everything else. Kill all the damn Hobo spiders I've had this conversation many times with my older brother, who, being much more of a naturalist, believes that all creatures should be allowed to floursh in peace and harmony, including mosquitos. (Food source for Birds and bats).

Bullshit. I love snakes. Except rattlesnakes. If we could get rid of every damn one and replace them with Bull snakes and King Snakes I'd be happy. Personal opinion, don't care if you like it or don't. Don't feel the need to be "politically correct" and pleasant to avoid the truth.

I want to be you. Wow, getting off at 3, that would be nice. Gandolfs rules.

I think I agree with every damn one of you cocksuckers. ......and feeling strange about it too.......... game on lets climb.

Is swat'n mozzies a new route you just did? Bill's Buttress anyone?