Gary_Yngve

We got lucky with the weather. We hiked up in pouring rain and were shivering by the time we set up our tent. The day we hiked out, the clear skies were replaced by haze from the Pasayten, and then a storm blew in. So, yes, our four days of climbing were timed perfectly. Of course, we carried at least eight days worth of food and a bunch of ice gear we didn't use.

Aren't like 50% of all emergency room visits drug- or alcohol-related? I'm sure the govt or insurance (i.e. all of us) absorbs most of that cost.

Landshark, self arrest consists of levering the pick of the axe into the snow while you are falling to slow you down and stop you. It needs to be done quickly and aggressively to have the greatest chances of success. If one person can't arrest, and the others are tied to them, then they may be able to catch the person's fall once the rope goes tight.

Yes, I heard of that too. But I still want a verifiable answer to how the phones do this. Some possibilities are: 1) triangulation from cell towers 2) triangulation from GPS satellites 3) superhero freezes time, finds you, and tells your phone where you are I think it would be really cool if my phone could tell me where I am when I have NO cell reception.

Thanks, Jason. Here's a better link. http://support.vzw.com/faqs/VZ_Navigator/faq.html#item8 My cellphone (KRZR) supports it. I'm still not convinced though that my cellphone talks to satellites. I think the confusion is that we say "GPS coords" when we really mean "UTM coords." I'll see what more juice I can dig up.

LandShark, when a team is roped together, if one falls, the others may be able to stop the fall by going into arrest themselves. (Key word is "may" -- on the south side of Hood when icy, there have been whole parties falling into the bergschrund) Anchors placed as running pro may catch the fall too. Regarding a dislocated shoulder, the arm may be next to useless afterward and need to be splinted, or the arm may be mostly functional once reduced. It really depends on the individual situation and medical history. Several years ago we had a party member dislocate his shoulder near Imperfect Impasse (his shoulder was a repeat offender), and after ferrying loads for him for the rest of the day, he was ok the next day.

So how come cellphones can stay on for 100-200 hours and track GPS whenever it's on, as you claim, whereas GPS devices only last 10-20 hours? And why can't I pay Verizon $100 extra up front (or $1 per use) for me to grab my cell's own GPS coords? They're always looking for itemized ways to make money. What's your qualifications for talking about this?

These folks have been doing SAR missions on Hood for who knows how long. I trust that they are considering all possibilities and are distributing resources the best they can. Every operational detail of who did what and when and where is generally not released to the public (and probably exists in a disarray of paperwork and notes and maps and computer files right now). If it's trees down there, you're not going to see any people from the air.

I don't think most cellphones have a GPS... I thought they calculate the triangulations of the celltowers themselves to get coords, instead of having the celltowers compute it?

jfmctlaw, maybe that accuracy in the city, where you have multiple towers within a few miles. From my SAR experiences, the E911 info has been of varying accuracy. Sometimes it's pretty darn good, sometimes a quarter mile off, sometimes more...

Is this "ping" any more accurate than the GPS coords returned from E911?

There's no set time. It depends on the circumstances and the care. Hypothermia needs to be treated early and aggressively. Generally there are three phases of hypothermia: mild: grumble, mumble, fumble, bumble... shivering moderate: violent shivering, more disorientation, lack of coordination severe: shivering ceases They correspond to core body temperatures too... I dunno exactly, as I'm not the type to want to stick a thermometer up someone's ass, but it's probably something like: mild >= 96, moderate >=91 The first goal in treating hypothermia is to eliminate means of cooling. That would mean protecting from wind/weather, replacing wet clothes with dry, and insulating. Second goal is to make the body more capable of warming itself. Water, food, oxygen (I'm beyond my knowledge here, but I'd guess O2 would only be useful at altitude, CO, or other cases of decreased respiratory performance?) Many people who are hypothermic are also dehydrated. Third goal is to rewarm. Drinking hot cocoa and snuggling may have psychological effect but little warming effect. With a fire, I'd be concerned about carbon monoxide and about burning someone who may not be able to feel how hot things are. If someone is so cold they barely have a pulse and could have HR/RR of a few times a minute, extreme care must be given not to jostle them, as sending cold/stagnant blood to the heart could stop it. There's a weird stage of hypothermia right before someone dies of it where they suddenly feel euphorically warm and feel the need to shed clothes. There's a whole other issue of CPR contraindication/not dead until warm that I'll punt on.

I think you're making an assumption that it's a severely broken arm. Someone else said dislocated. Maybe, maybe not. I think all we've heard for certain is that someone perceived a visual deformity in the arm? Regarding the phonecall, I dunno how much we can infer from that, given that reception was bad, and the only ones who heard it were the family (they can't be expected to give an unbiased recount of it given the circumstances). The deceased could have been suffering from any subset (all, some, or none) of the following in the snowcave: dehydration, shock, hypothermia, carbon monoxide poisoning, frostbite, etc. I'm sure some more information will be discovered pending the autopsy, but really, most of that is just the family's concern. If there's anything that is relevant to promoting climbers' safety, I'm sure the info will be passed along. I think we all wish there would be something to learn from this that would make us safer, but in all likelihood, this may just be a case of bad luck compounded with more bad luck.

If the media hasn't gone rabid yet, things would be even crazier if the sheriff called it a recovery. And some in media may confuse the issue and incorrectly state as fact that all three climbers had perished. There's even some situations where the sheriff might withhold information from the family temporarily or not disclose full operational details.

Yes, just be patient. More information will come out over time. It's hard enough for the searchers to communicate info they may have with themselves, especially when they change shifts. Remember the coal mine debacle a few years ago? Premature announcement that the coal miners were alive, but they were dead all along?

Elitist in attitude for some, but very few top climbers are in the money. Many dirtbag it, sleeping on couches, working seasonal jobs until they have enough funds for another trip... In fact, when I think of money, I think of folks buying their way to the top of something via guides, which personally, would eliminate my sense of exploration and adventure.

Trip: Bugaboos - several Date: 8/22/2006 Trip Report: (very late TR) In late August, Justin Evans and I climbed four routes in as many days in the Bugaboos, world-class granite spires surrounded by glaciers. We enjoyed the easy approach, cush camping, fixed rappel stations, and stellar climbing. Party management and rockfall mitigation were important at B-S col and unstable moraines. In late August, Justin Evans and I climbed four routes in as many days in the Bugaboos, world-class granite spires surrounded by glaciers. We enjoyed the easy approach, cush camping, fixed rappel stations, and stellar climbing. Party management and rockfall mitigation were important at B-S col and unstable moraines. Day one was cloudy, so we chose McTech Arete on Crescent (6p 5.10a), one of the "crag" routes with an easy retreat. The route featured splitter cracks on white granite, including the crux fingercrack and twin handcracks. The true crux was when an impatient party on our tails built their anchor through our rope coils as I was leading the fingercrack. They insisted that my belayer untie to fix the problem... The classic NE Ridge of Bugaboo (12p 5.8) started with a crux lieback half-pitch (especially when carrying boots/axe/pons) followed by varied moderate climbing to an exposed summit traverse. We shared the route with the thirteen people ahead and waited at every belay and rap, returning to camp after 10PM. Good news was the party directly in front of us were hot Canadian women. Bad news was we got a rope stuck on the descent as the last party, so we lost precious minutes of daylight having to lead back up to fix it and couldn't catch up to the gals. We now know better than to wake "late" at 4AM on the first bluebird day in a week! The West Ridge of Pigeon (5.4) is the BEST CLIMB EVER! If you don't like it, you're not a climber. We scrambled all but the final pitch. Don't trust any shortroping teams to keep their ropes from clotheslining you, even when they offer to let you pass. Surf's Up on Snowpatch (7p 5.9) started as a sea of rounded flakes. On the third pitch, we drifted left, a common mistake, and rappeled. (BETA: end of p3 is about 30m up and 10m right of the start) Humorously, an impatient party passed us offroute and rapped too. Higher, the route changed dramatically. A lieback led to one of the best handcracks I've ever climbed (nicknamed the "I have a hard-on" crack). Shoutouts to Forrest Murphy, DanAlyward, Dylan Johnson, Colin Haley, and Ross Peritore, whom we bumped into up there. The state of the B-S col then: More pics available at: http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/gyngve/Bugaboos/

Regarding light-and-fast, here's what Steve and Vince took for Rupal Face: http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/patagonia.go?assetid=10348

Hi ShiniGami, You might consider taking a course from the Mountaineers. They can help you reduce your packweight but still keep you safe!

My biggest concern would be the lack of any other information. How many people? Injuries? Terrain? Could you not answer these questions until you scouted the area? Would that have to be done by helicopter? (I'm guessing the receivers are not meant to be portable.) What if you couldn't fly? SAR doesn't have the manpower/equipment/money to respond with everything for every time a little button gets pressed. It would be like sending a hook-and-ladder, SWAT team, and Lifelink heli every time 911 got called.

How well do these devices work on a cliff or in a canyon? (where GPS devices tend to suck?)

In your Tahoma case, couldn't you lower in with a 600-ft rope? I'd agree with you on Willis Wall with that high objective hazard that no one's gonna come for you. Unless it were somehow possible to get a heli in there (dunno about steepness and winds) and shorthaul. Rescues are by definition not light and fast. I think the more important question, that would then lead up to your rescue question, is: How would you call for help, or how would they locate you?

8D

All we need to do is convert them all to Christianity, and then all will be fine.

Another piece on Christine: http://www.mountainmadness.com/news/rockice04.cfm