26 dead in Connecticut elementary school

[rob]

 

the story d'jour kinda pisses me off - why do we suddenly give more of a crap b/c its a bunch of kids who got killed? why is it that the endless # of adults getting gunned down don't matter?

 

Well, I think there is a difference between two gang members shooting each other or jealous wives or whatever, and a bunch of 1st graders being slaughtered in class, yeah. Not all murders upset me equally. Is that wrong?

[ivan]

i said "kinda" - there was little of this actual energy towards action after the virginia tech ho-down, despite all them grown-ups that got kilt - i'm happy to see some sorta movement, mind you, just think it's fucked that the cult of childhood-veneration is what was crucial to getting at the heart of the biscuit...

[JayB]

Since you brought up the subject of society, this graph caught me by surprise:

 

Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics (see post above for link)

 

The murder rate is HALF of what it was when I was a kid, and similar to levels seen in the 1950's, AND heading down? Why doesn't the media focus on these positive trends? I know I sure didn't know the story. There are a bunch of other positive trends in the wealth of data publicly available- child murders by strangers way down from 1980, etc.

 

This doesn't make what happened in Conn. any easier to take, but I think it should inform the debate about gun control, incarceration, etc. By almost all measures we are safer now that we have been in decades. Someone is doing something right. I sure don't know what, but there are some theories out there from folks in this field.

 

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/06/long-term-trend-in-homicide-rates.html

 

Interesting note on the last blip, which is something that I've suspected was at least partially behind the declining murder rate:

 

"BALTIMORE—The number of U.S. homicides has been falling for two decades, but America has become no less violent.

 

Crime experts who attribute the drop in killings to better policing or an aging population fail to square the image of a more tranquil nation with this statistic: The reported number of people treated for gunshot attacks from 2001 to 2011 has grown by nearly half.

 

"Did everybody become a lousy shot all of a sudden? No," said Jim Pasco, executive director of the National Fraternal Order of Police, a union that represents about 330,000 officers. "The potential for a victim to survive a wound is greater than it was 15 years ago."

 

In other words, more people in the U.S. are getting shot, but doctors have gotten better at patching them up. Improved medical care doesn't account for the entire decline in homicides but experts say it is a major factor."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324712504578131360684277812.html

Edited December 17, 2012 by JayB

[rob]

i said "kinda" - there was little of this actual energy towards action after the virginia tech ho-down, despite all them grown-ups that got kilt - i'm happy to see some sorta movement, mind you, just think it's fucked that the cult of childhood-veneration is what was crucial to getting at the heart of the biscuit...

 

Yeah, I can see that. It's kinda arbitrary. But then, isn't everything, kinda?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Who cares if she went to the range, she still decided to buy assault rifles, ammunition, high mag clips and body armor, and her crazy son got his hands on them.

 

Everyone should care. You don't fix a problem without understanding everything that contributes to it, and obtaining the facts. I want to know what this mother was like, and if she should have owned the guns she did or not. I'd like to know what influence she had on her son in this matter - was she glorifying gun use to him? Was she mentally ill herself (survivalists usually aren't dealing with a full deck, IMO).

 

[rob]

Who cares if she went to the range, she still decided to buy assault rifles, ammunition, high mag clips and body armor, and her crazy son got his hands on them.

 

. I want to know what this mother was like, and if she should have owned the guns she did or not.

 

Considering how it turned out, I'd say she should not have owned them.

[Jim]

Who cares if she went to the range, she still decided to buy assault rifles, ammunition, high mag clips and body armor, and her crazy son got his hands on them.

 

. I want to know what this mother was like, and if she should have owned the guns she did or not.

 

Considering how it turned out, I'd say she should not have owned them.

 

Exactly. It always something like this - oh he got them from his grandfather/parent/brother/friend's house. The short of it is that if we were not a society awash in guns this troubled person would not have even got into the school.

 

The current model of free-market guns is not working. Among 1st world countries we are an outlier in gun violence.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

As uzhe, the cherry picked graph shows the opposite of what's actually happening. Thank you for yet another installment in a seemingly inexhaustible supply of bullshit.

 

We've done this experiment - where everybody not only can carry freely, but are encouraged to do so. It was called the Wild West - and the gun violence rate was through the roof.

 

You guns nuts are costing the rest of us way too much in support of your personal fantasy of shooting your way out of the coming zombie apocalypse. Your rusty million gallon tank of craziness has leaked out over the entire country for long enough. It's time the rest of us traded our security for yours through the political process. Every time this happens, you're partly to blame. Fuck you.

 

 

[rob]

I'm already hearing republican politicians seriously discussing arming kindergarten teachers as the correct solution to this problem. What the fuck is wrong with people? It makes me so angry that people are so retarded.

[AlpineK]

From everything I've read the single best gun to own for self defense is a shotgun. It has an added benefit of being good for bird hunting.

 

Hunting isn't the only reason to own a riffle or a pistol. Some folks like to own them for target shooting. Of the few times I've ever shot either the goal was hitting a distant target. Riffles and hand guns also meet some peoples needs for self defense.

 

It seems like the focus of any legislation rule changes should be banning assault weapons and requiring background checks at gun shows. If I was hunting elk, the last thing I would want is an assault weapon since the point of hunting is harvesting meat for consumption not blowing the shit out of wildlife.

 

In this case the shooter took his moms registered weapons. If she didn't own assault weapons it might have slowed or deterred him.

 

Yep, no solution is perfect. Folks can modify or steal weapons, but putting in a few more backstops doesn't hurt or restrict the legitimate ownership of a gun.

[jon]

Gun control needs to come in the form of penalties. Instead of people non-chalantly storing their guns, make the penalties so stiff for possession of a firearm not in the registered owners hands, especially in the cases where it involves a minor, not a single person would risk letting them out of their safe. That is the only way this is going to work, there are just too many weapons out there for anything other then this to be effective. We are too frequently now not able to hold anyone accountable, so the only way to stop this to make those who would be accountable so scared shitless of the consequences they wouldn't in their right mind allow it to happen.

 

A good case in point is this guy who had his gun in his car, wasn't it even a police officers, and his 3 year old grabbed it and blew his head off. Twenty years in jail, easy trial, it was your gun, your kid had it and killed himself, end of story have fun don't drop the soap.

 

If people want to fire assault weapons to shoot shit and blow shit up.... join the military.

 

Also, I think it's time we engaged our service members in this debate. We glorify war in games and movies, people go to the range thinking they are commando. They might have the most powerful voice in telling how terrible it is to kill someone.

[rob]

+1

 

gun owners should be held responsible if they fail to properly secure their guns. Great power, great responsibility.

[matt_warfield]

 

1) For one person a 22 at point blank at the base of the head

2) 9 mil, one in the head and one in the heart, mob style.

3) Shotgun if you don't have good aim

4) Rifle if you are a sniper type

5) Assault rifle for doing the most damage in minimal time

6) Grenades, bombs, and etc. follow.

 

Gun control won't fix any one of these things.

 

Keep your shit safe and have good judgment.

Edited December 17, 2012 by matt_warfield

[KaskadskyjKozak]

+1

 

gun owners should be held responsible if they fail to properly secure their guns. Great power, great responsibility.

 

The murderer's mother was held responsible in the end - she paid the ultimate penalty

[Jim]

While the overall homicide rate in the US is trending downward, it is still way above other countries with a similar living standard (really, don't throw Mexico and Columbia into the statistics), but mass killings are on an upward trend.

 

Studies show a strong correlation between the availability of handguns and the homicide rate AND that there are less gun deaths in states with stricter gun control.

 

Awash in Guns

 

I grew up around hunting buddies, did the deer/turkey thing; as a wildlife ecologist spent quite a bit of time in hunter camps getting samples (deer heads, body parts for genetics/parasite studies) and under stand how some folks love of the outdoors translates into hunting. What I don't get is the fear factor that drives a lot of gun ownership; either of the government or just the general boogie man. Why are folks such chickenlittles that they feel the need to have a gun in the house that is more likely to end up killing a family member than an intruder. Don't get it.

 

 

[matt_warfield]

+1

 

gun owners should be held responsible if they fail to properly secure their guns. Great power, great responsibility.

 

The murderer's mother was held responsible in the end - she paid the ultimate penalty

 

If she had guns in a lockbox and not in the closet or under the pillow or under the couch this could have been prevented.

 

It is a terrible tragedy but owning guns is a big responsibility.

Edited December 17, 2012 by matt_warfield

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Who cares if she went to the range, she still decided to buy assault rifles, ammunition, high mag clips and body armor, and her crazy son got his hands on them.

 

. I want to know what this mother was like, and if she should have owned the guns she did or not.

 

Considering how it turned out, I'd say she should not have owned them.

 

Exactly. It always something like this - oh he got them from his grandfather/parent/brother/friend's house. The short of it is that if we were not a society awash in guns this troubled person would not have even got into the school.

 

The current model of free-market guns is not working. Among 1st world countries we are an outlier in gun violence.

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/16/us/connecticut-nancy-lanza-profile/index.html?iref=obinsite

 

 

[jon]

+1

 

gun owners should be held responsible if they fail to properly secure their guns. Great power, great responsibility.

 

The murderer's mother was held responsible in the end - she paid the ultimate penalty

 

That's bullshit and you know it. The only penalty is to rot in jail and having to face the families of these innocent children that were slayed due to her negligence. She got it pretty easy compared to what all these people affected by this have to deal with the rest of their lives.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

If she had guns in a lockbox and not in the closet or under the pillow or under the couch this could have been prevented.

 

It is a terrible tragedy but owning guns is a big responsibility.

 

How do you know that she did not have them in a lock box?

[matt_warfield]

You can't control other people's behavior.

 

Adult lions kill the young of a rival to ensure they are next in line (not a Dio reference per se). Pack animals (wolves, hyenas, etc.) do what they have to do.

 

We are at the top of the food chain but chaos and violence erupts now and then. Unless we have our head in the lion's mouth and don't have a weapon.

[matt_warfield]

 

If she had guns in a lockbox and not in the closet or under the pillow or under the couch this could have been prevented.

 

It is a terrible tragedy but owning guns is a big responsibility.

 

How do you know that she did not have them in a lock box?

 

She would have to have kept the code a secret. Which is kind of the purpose of a lockbox or gun cabinet.

Edited December 17, 2012 by matt_warfield

[rob]

 

If she had guns in a lockbox and not in the closet or under the pillow or under the couch this could have been prevented.

 

It is a terrible tragedy but owning guns is a big responsibility.

 

How do you know that she did not have them in a lock box?

 

Well, we definitely know that she failed to keep them secure one way or another, didn't she? That's how responsibility works. It was her job to be responsible for those guns. She failed.

[matt_warfield]

Which is kind of why I made the comments I made.

 

I believe in gun ownership but responsibly. Apparently it doesn't always work like that.

Edited December 17, 2012 by matt_warfield

[tvashtarkatena]

Weird kid + lots of guns doesn't seem like a good choice to me.

 

A smart kid can get into any locker, no?

 

No guns in the house solves at least that problem.

 

More folks should choose this option. The idea that most people are responsible enough to secure an assault rifle collection is ludicrous. People are generally idiots, and people who tend to be into assault rifles tend to be a bit off to begin with. That's reality. I realize that the Right Wing World doesn't include much of that, but there it is.

 

A pro gun culture, and ours is certainly that, has brought us lots and lots of random and nonrandom gun violence. We're going to continue to disagree, so its up to the sane majority to out lobby and out vote the insane minority here. People who are really serious about actual home defense should have a shotgun and no more. Yes, that's gonna mean forcing them to make some changes. So cry me a river, already.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[kevbone]

You can't control other people's behavior.

 

 

 

Ding ding ding!!!!!!