old school climbers vs. sport climbers

[MysticNacho]

Evening all, just thought I'd post a thought or two for discussion. I'm a student at PLU taking a mountaineering class from a certain professor whom I just discovered posts here frequently. Wassup Dwayner! Anyway, after leafing around this site for the first time in months and listening to more than one of Dwayner's lectures, I've discovered and heard a lot of slander against sport climbers.

Actually, I'm going to tell a story first. Gather 'round children. I was climbing with my brother this last summer at Madrone Wall near Portland. We had just spotted a fun looking 75 foot 5.7 climb, the first half a face climb, second half a crack climb. Looked like a relatively small crack, and my rack of 1 set of nuts, half a set of hexes, and 1 cam looked like it just might be up to the job. I could always downclimb if I couldn't protect it, after all, it was only 5.7.

So off I went, clipped a bolt 15' off the ground, discovered a rusty old piton 20' feet of the ground, clipped that too. Soon after, the crack begun. I fumbled around attempting to get my nuts & hexes to fit in, but the crack wasn't deep enough in most places to accept them. Finally, at about 60', I found a nice little spot for a #2 stopper, so I stuck that sucker in and kept climbing. 15' higher, I reached the bolt anchors. There was groundfall potential before that nut was placed, but it was ok, I felt comfortable enough that I could have finished the climb without placing a single piece of pro.

My brother, who has never climbed anything higher than 5.8, and only led a sport climb once, decides he wants to lead this climb as well. What follows is probably the stupidest thing I've ever done in my entire life. If ever I could take back something in my life, this just might be it. I was feeling pretty good about myself right about then, thinking about how easy that 5.7 was, that I forgot that he was pretty inexperienced. I let him lead, poor guy. Anyway, we pull the rope through the anchors and the pro, so all he had to do was clip the bolt, piton, and nut, then slide the rope through the anchors and get lowered off. Off he goes, and to make a long story short, about 10' above clipping my #2 nut, just before reaching the top of the climb, he fell. Time freezes; moments stretch to eternity as I realize that if that nut doesn't hold my brother will die. I already know in my head it isn't going to hold, because although I have read a couple books on placing gear and know the theory behind it, have very little experience placing pro and basically know nothing. Those eternal moments pass painfully one by one, and suddenly my brother's body is jerked to a stop by that one nut. It was a good placement, it held. My brother was bloody and scared, but alive.

This story is the reason I'm in Dwayner's mountaineering class, even though its mostly pretty basic stuff, I was hoping to have someone actually teach me with hands on experience how to place gear, as opposed to reading about how to do it in some book and getting myself or others killed.

The point of this does relate to the topic of sport climbing vs. you folks who slander sport climbers. Why do people sport climb? For my brother, he likes to sport climb because it's safe. He loves to climb, and loves it a lot, although he would prefer to stick with those shiny, pretty bolts because I didn't put them there, haha. I sport climb because I don't have any other choice. I agree completely on most of your bolting ethics; they are placed unjustly and unnecessarily in most, if not all areas. But I love climbing, and I'm a starving college student who spends all his money on a Perkin's loan. I can't afford those fancy $50 cam's, I can barely afford a set of nuts. So I clip bolts because I'd rather see the environmental damage of having some drilled holes then give up my love for climbing.

For those of you who constantly rag on sport climbers, think before you speak. Sure, everyone gets a kick out of those sport climbers with ten earings and blue hair, who say things like "check out that sick move on those wicked bomber jugs dude!" Even I have been known to say things like "sick" or "jugs," just because its fun to sound goofy every once in awhile. But as to you old timers who judge me by the fact I clip bolts, how dare you. Do you really think your a better person because you think bolts are evil? Get in line, so do I. How many bolts have you clipped? Who are you to judge me? For that matter, who am I to judge you? Some people clip because its safe, some people clip because they have to, some people clip because they love climbing. Some people clip because its the only thing they know, and its those individual PEOPLE you should criticize, not sport climbing itself. Most sport climbers are just inexperienced, and would probably love to be a trad climber if they had the time, money, experience, or balls. But for some reason, they're not trad climbers, so they defend clipping bolts with every ounce of their energy. They're just unwilling to learn. So criticize them, not me, not sport climbing.

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents on an eternal debate.

[This message has been edited by MysticNacho (edited 10-04-2001).]

[pope]

You clip bolts because you don't have money to buy a rack? Go to a cheaper college! Seriously, if you want safety, set up a top-rope. If you want adventure, scramble up a remote peak. It sounds like you clip bolts out of convenience...and hey, everybody admits that clipping bolts is easy, safe and fun. But doesn't it bother you when you see this unsightly trash all over our cliffs? Don't you understand that bolting damage is relatively permanent?

If you do end up purchasing a power drill (after graduating from Parkland's Ivy League school), try to confine your engineering projects to cliffs that have already been molested by your bolt drilling buddies.

[lizard_brain]

"So I clip bolts because I'd rather see the environmental damage of having some drilled holes then give up my love for climbing."

 

Your love of climbing outweighs environmental damage. How noble.

[Peter_Puget]

Mystic – Ah you’ve hit the mother lode here. I would ask you to go back and review the various threads in which criticisms were made about bolts and sport climbers. Note in particular my criticism of Dwayner/Donna Two Step’s misrepresentation of facts. You will find they are an ever shifting confused batch of invective designed to insult and intimidate not persuade. Look how they speak in generalities and never specifics. Look how they shift the debate to side issues and personal attacks. In earlier posts I have suggested that in fact the bolting debate is often the cover for some deeper motivation. Look at the personal nature of the replies to your post. I’ll let you decide for yourself.

So now in a serious and friendly outreach I ask the following questions:

1. Is bolting always bad?

2. Since all human action at the crags results in an impact on the environment how are we to determine what impact is immoral?

3. Are there objective standards that we can use to guide our actions?

 

[offwidthclimber]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MysticNacho:

Sure, everyone gets a kick out of those sport climbers with ten earings and blue hair, who say things like "check out that sick move on those wicked bomber jugs dude!"

---

hmmm... i've been climbing for at least ten years and have never heard a phrase like that. besides, if it was such a "sick move," it wouldn't be on "wicked bomber jugs," but more like a "a sick dyno from that heinous sloper to the half-pad razor crimp. tight dude!"

and no, i've never mentioned any of those words before...

anyway, i believe that bolts do have their place in some areas. and i don't buy the bullshit environmental damage argument of some anti bolters. a few cubic centimeters of missing rock and a tiny bit of metal has nothing to do with environmental damage, rather everything to do with perceived aesthetics, personal ethics and ideals. bolts are no more detrimtental in a purely scientific argument than pitons or sligns. rock is inorganic matter and the impact of bolts is merely aesthetic. ironically, there's a hell of a lot more environmental impact on cliffside ecology in gardening out a dirty crack full of moss and vegetation for a new crack/trad climb than there is slamming in a few bolts for a sport climb...

anyway, i don't mean this as a pro-sport climbing argument, nor as a rebuttal to MysticNacho or Pope's arguments, rather as a general statement to keep things a bit in perspective.

on an absolute level, sport climbing is no more silly than trad climbing, or aid routes, or alpine slogs, or mixed climbs, or bouldering, or water ice. it's just a different discipline of climbing. the value of whether it's silly or detrimental comes from the individual, or perhaps the community, not generally from a scientific sense (although, yes, there are exceptions to every rule).

bottom line is to have fun and try not to worry too much about what others consider fun and important, unless it infringes on acceptable ethics and standards in a particular area. ie. if people want to bolt up exit 38, great. but if people want to start bolting up Snow Creek Wall or Castle Rock, where trad climbing is the ethic and precedence, that's a whole different story.

anyway, enough from the peanut gallery climb on and have fun, whether you're clipping bolts or pluggin' pro.

peace.

[Bronco]

Mystic Macho:

I kind of wish you hadn't re-opened this can of worms, but, I'll bite because - I am bored.

In my opinion, most "old school" climbers aren't "anti-sport" just "anti-bolt". It appears we agree on anti bolting. Being somewhat of a "newbie" myself, I am really surprised the enviro's, (I am a self proclaimed conservationalist, or fence sitter in political speak ), haven't made more of an effort to stop bolting in any publicly owned lands. If you can't climb it with-out bolts, maybe you should leave it alone or climb somewhere that is already bolted.

I have clipped bolts and will in the future but, I would rather go on a hike or trail run if I can't go trad climbing. It's all good and if any of this reply or anything on this website offends you (as it apparantly has) feel free to find another, you're taking peoples opinions way too seriously.

[mattp]

Rock on, Mystic. I'm not sure that most sport climbers would rather climb trad routes, but otherwise I generally agree with you: it is just as arrogant and egotistical for an anti-sport trad climber to carry on like an evangelistic crusader as it is for a sport climber to look down upon his trad climbing brethren because those "gumbies" can only climb 5.10 or 5.11 and they don't know how to properly employ the heel hook or do a figure 4 or whatever. And sometimes the anti- sport rhetoric does more harm than good.

To me, the most important point you make is that we all need to show some humility. I can't disagree with anyone who says bolts are ugly and cause permanent scarring of the rock. But I believe as do Puget and OffWidthClimber that trad climbing also causes environmental damage and the people who argue that bolts are a desecration of nature often seem to overlook this fact. In my view, there is room for both trad and sport climbing in Washington and bolts sometimes even have a proper place on some traditional crags. If those armed with power drills would use more restraint and show what I consider to be common sense, and if those upset about the proliferation of bolts would be able to measure their response so as to avoid inflaming the situation, we would all be better off.

[This message has been edited by mattp (edited 10-04-2001).]

[Rodchester]

At least we all like beer...right?

[Beck]

... Yvon Chounard's fundamental reason for developing chocks and stoppers( as well as Frost, etc..) was the environmental impact PITONS were causing at the crags- flakes were dropping of the big walls in YOS and altering the nature of the big walls. He saw much more intrinsic environmental climbing styles in the Brits, who used natural protection, chockstones, slings on chickenheads, tape assisted slinging, also not running out a rope but using belay stances if they were even 40 feet apart. He mentions classic British climbs as having polished holds but no human damage vs. piton scars ruining American rock.

The issues of sport vs. trad is not a black and white issue, but generally, I think with any wilderness area, it is not US who are the end users, it is our children, and their children,etc.

The most important thing we can do as climbers is... protect the vertical environment for future generations.

"Fostering stewardship of the vertical environment"

Was it Aldo Leopold who said " The true value of wilderness lies... not in Daniel Boone's time, or ours, but in the future."

sorry about the lousy paraphrasing, I don't have any of my lit at work.

[Terry]

But I love climbing, and I'm a starving college student who spends all his money on a Perkin's loan. I can't afford those fancy $50 cam's, I can barely afford a set of nuts. So I clip bolts because I'd rather see the environmental damage of having some drilled holes then give up my love for climbing.

Heard from a desperate climber while climbing at the S. Fork of the Clearwater in Idaho several years ago: "I don't have any friends and my nuts are too small."

You don't need $50 cams to climb and if you can't afford nuts and hexes it would seem that you can't afford the gas to get to the climb.

Over-dependence on equipment and the false sense of security they bring with them is probably a lecture yet to be delivered by Prof Dwayner.

[Wopper]

I agree with Pope - Go to a state college and use the extra 20k/year to buy a nice big rack.

[Dru]

Any body read the new AAJ yet? I liked where Leo Holding called homeboy Sean Isaac an "aid climbing rapist" for placing a rivet ladder while aiding on La Esfinge.

[EddieE]

Sorry my friend, but lack of funds to get gear is a poor excuse to not go climbing. You aren't the first Lute climber to be so poor you can't even pay attention. Gear shouldn't be your limiting factor. A rack of stoppers and hexes will take you a long ways, and you'll learn how to place passive protection correctly. It's nice to have a bunch of cams, but if that's the only thing you know how to place, you're still a long way off.

[DPS]

Sport climbing and bolts have their place. Where else do you take your girlfriend climbing for the first time?

[This message has been edited by danielpatricksmith (edited 10-04-2001).]

[mattp]

I've taken them to Castle Rock.

[Retrosaurus]

Mystic,

Lack of gear is no excuse not to trad climb. Even if you had all the gear, likely you would lack the experience to use it safely. You need to put energy in to developing a relationship with a climber with the experience that you lack; he already has the gear. I climbed for years with out a rack at all, because I have a passion for climbing. Sport climbers sport climb because they can stay in their comfort zone and don't have to put in the work to grow as a climber the skills knowlege and mental toughness that it takes to maintain an acceptable level of safety and to keep your shit together when you stray beyond it. That being said, there is room for sport climbing. There are places where it is completely appropriate, but often persuants of this "fast-food" form of the sport have not developed the experience/judgement to know where bolting is appropriate or just dont give a shit.

-Mitch

[Cpt.Caveman]

Wow typical responses I would expect.

I will admit it takes more gear = more wieght to carry when you crack climb. Also you can sew the cracks up if you are scared. I am expert at this

I will admit I feel more at ease when I clip bolts. Therefore am willing to climb at a higher level when doing so unless it is runout slabs. There is a definite sense of adventure missing when I clip completely bolted routes such as Violent Phlegms at North Bend 5.10D. While on the other hand no way I would try to lead the Pressure Chamber 5.10D on Hyperspace (supposedly same difficulty ~ yeah right ) You have to do the math yourself and see where you lie. Others may disagree but inner senses will not lie

I have taken beginners to Index or even North Bend... I don't see them climbing any better in any place.

If you lead Jug Or Not in North Bend and think it is the same deal I invite you to try Dishonorable Discharge in Leavenworth. Same rating

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 10-04-2001).]

[texplorer]

Some excellent posts here today. For the most part I agree with what has been said here. I don't look down on sport climbers at all but I have a few problems however with some of your "reasons" for not trad climbing. If money is a reason you can't buy pro let me introduce you to a new inexpensive kind of food called Ramen Noodles. Joking aside I don't make that much money but I got a job where I could get gear at half price and I save like Ebeneezer and yes I eat ramen on a regular basis. My point is that time and money are not an excuse not to climb. You may have chosen to go to college and get a degree or have a job but that was your decision. What you should say is you don't want it bad enough to sacrifice your education or girlfriend or whatever. There is nothing wrong with that just don't use that as a crutch. As for trad being safe - it can be very safe. If you want more safety go do another extreme sport like rollerblading. Most people climb at least in part to experience the feeling of danger whether real or contrived. I understand your comments on the general disrespect for sport and boulders. Do what you like to do and don't worry about it when we are ditching all you blue haired, eyebrow pierced, rastafarian cap sport climbers. Most of the time we say it all in fun. Climb on.

[Winter]

Bolts are one thing ... access is another. Madrone was closed last summer and still is. Folks are working on getting that gem reopened, and poaching it isn't going to help. But sport climbing isn't a crime.

[Peter_Puget]

Here’s another question: When does sport climbing become trad climbing? Lets start off with Bachar-Yerian. Now I am guessing that that is not a sport route. But using Cavey’s example Violent Phlegms is considered a sport route.. What’s the critical difference? Is it the distance between bolts? Is it the chance of getting hurt? Is it rap vs. on lead placement of bolts? What would be a set of distinctions I could use to differentiate the two? After I get a clear understanding of the difference my question is:Why are bolts placed on sport routes less sinful than those placed on “trad” routes?

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter Puget:

Here’s another question: When does sport climbing become trad climbing? Lets start off with Bachar-Yerian. Now I am guessing that that is not a sport route. But using Cavey’s example Violent Phlegms is considered a sport route.. What’s the critical difference? Is it the distance between bolts? Is it the chance of getting hurt? Is it rap vs. on lead placement of bolts? What would be a set of distinctions I could use to differentiate the two? After I get a clear understanding of the difference my question is:Why are bolts placed on sport routes less sinful than those placed on “trad” routes?

---

I dont know those answers. I do know that those routes I mentioned are prime examples you can wail on to test my theory.

C'mon Violent Phlegms and the Pressure Chamber would be two worlds apart for me to attempt to lead. Trust me my man I just got wailed on at Index Sunday on sport routes that were stiff.

[forrest_m]

Just reread the initial post and thought I'd take a different stab at it - all the bolting discussion has been done to death...

If I'm reading MysticNacho right, part of what he's saying is that he's tired of getting grief from "trad" climbers for only participating in "sport" climbing. I think this attitude comes in from 2 sources, in varying proportions:

1) It is the only way to maintain your dignity when some 14 year old kid - who wasn't even born when you started climbing - sends a route that you couldn't get to the second clip on.

2) A lot of it stems from frustration. It's like when one of your friends claims to know all about food, to really love eating, but who has only eaten italian food. It's not that italian is bad, we all like a good bowl of pasta, but it's hardly the whole of the culinary experience. To really know about food, you have to risk eating some things you might not like, not just continue ordering the same dish that you know is good, over and over and over... most "old school" climbers also sport climb, they have a wide enough experience to recognize that while it's fun, it's the pizza of the climbing world, tasty if done well, but only a small part of a spectrum that includes mexican, thai, indian, basque, japanese, ethiopian....

[MysticNacho]

Madrone closed last summer? Hot damn. I was wondering why I never saw anyone else there anymore. As for all you pikers who are telling me to suck it up and still climb even if I don't have much of a trad rack, that's exactly what I do. I've climbed a fair chunk of routes on the limited sets of nuts & hexes that I do have. At one point, I was climbing every weekend and somtimes on the weekdays mixed sport/trad.

Let me clarify: I'm not trying to use a short budget as a crutch to justify sport climbing, I'm just saying I don't do as much trad as I'd like to.

I like beer.

[Dru]

To those who said - Don't sport climb just toprope it - what about Monkey Face? that Burdo route on Baring? Sissy Summits in canmore? Pretty long toprope huh.

or take a 1-pitch route at the base of a large wall, like say, Screaming Yelow Zonkers at Smith.

How do you get the rope up there to set the toprope? Rap in from the rim with a 1000 foot rope?

[This message has been edited by Dru (edited 10-04-2001).]

[MysticNacho]

By the way, excellent responses from everyone!