First set of Cams?

[Laughingman]

Are the larger size TCU's (2,3,4) "better" then the smaller sized powercams? (1,2,3)

 

Also I am looking for Cams more for Alpine climbing then yosemite. So aliens don't seem like the greatest option to me.

[mattp]

I'm interested in the Master Cams discussion. I don't get out as much as I would like but in smaller cracks I have found them to feel pretty solid the way that BD Camelots do in larger cracks. Is the problem with them that they get bunged up too fast or are you guys finding them hard to place or are they too heavy or what?

[pink]

For small cams I say ditch the Master cams and ideally go with a set of each: tcu's-gray to orange, new aliens (fixefader or totem) blue to red.

 

Master Cams blow.

Clueless...

 

let's say someone is clueless... you have a funny way of clueing them in mister

 

 

[Teh Phuzzy]

Are the larger size TCU's (2,3,4) "better" then the smaller sized powercams? (1,2,3)

 

Also I am looking for Cams more for Alpine climbing then yosemite. So aliens don't seem like the greatest option to me.

 

My yellow (2 I think) TCU is my most placed piece of gear by far. I have one larger than that and then I head to C4's. Working great so far, but I assure you that I have way less experience than most folks around here.

[Blake]

I'm interested in the Master Cams discussion. I don't get out as much as I would like but in smaller cracks I have found them to feel pretty solid the way that BD Camelots do in larger cracks. Is the problem with them that they get bunged up too fast or are you guys finding them hard to place or are they too heavy or what?

 

To me they are just worse than aliens in every way. Less flexy, less range, more apt to get stuck due to lobes that rotate past each other, more easily gummed up, and after the cam stops (which the triggers pull on) broke on a purple one (and metolius wouldn't do anything about it) I don't have much faith in their durability.

 

I'd vote for wanting an alien or offset alien in about 80-90% of the small cam placements I make, with a pretty even distribution of times I'd want a TCU or C3 for the odd spot here and there on the other placements.

[Blake]

I'd be interested in seeing someone leading 5.12+ - 5.13 on them.

How about a fair percentage of the guys who make them...

 

Wait... Mastercams are good because the people who make them say so?

 

 

 

 

I heard that those "pet rock" things are pretty awesome too!

[JosephH]

I'd be interested in seeing someone leading 5.12+ - 5.13 on them.

How about a fair percentage of the guys who make them...

Wait... Mastercams are good because the people who make them say so?

No, the Metolius crew doesn't just say Master Cams are good, a fair number of them climb at the level Sol was asking about and seem to have no problem placing them. And if you can't place gear at the grade, then maybe you aren't as competent at the grade as you think. Saying something "blows" is a pretty strong pronouncement, and one likely to garner an equally succinct response.

[Rad]

...I post on here to provide psyche, info, and motivation. Done.

 

Amen.

 

 

This may sound obvious, but cams are very different creatures from passive pro. Take some time to practice setting, testing, and cleaning them in cracks on the ground and have your partners do the same. Otherwise you'll be getting them stuck and leaving them behind. Spendy habit that.

 

 

[mattp]

Yes, I've always liked the aliens. They get pretty bunged up, too, with heavy use. What about the BD's? In the tiniest sizes they seem pretty good but I always like my tiny aliens, too; in the finger size cracks the master cams feel pretty solid. not so sure about finger size. Any votes for wild country? OP?

[selkirk]

Jeez...on our way (as usual) to once again proving Godwin's Law over an increasingly stupid debate over which cams are better than which cams.

 

 

boring, tiresome, pointless, idiotic, childish...seriously.

 

fwiw...I mostly use a combo of Met. TCUs, C3s, or Master Cams (and occasional Aliens) in the grey to yellow (Metolius) sizes. I like them all...sometimes I like one more than the other. Sometimes it doesn't matter. ymmv.

 

For a first set...pick one...and they'll be fine. Later on you'll try something else and will either like it more ... or less. But they're still fine.

 

 

What he said!

 

ymmv but ....

Wild Country Zero's in the really smalls size (up to blue TCU)

a mix of TCU's and Master Cams Blue to Red.

A mix of DMM 4cu's, with 1x gold link cam and 1x Metolius Super Cam up to the #4 DMM 4 CU (Equivalent to an old #3.5 Camanlot or a new #4).

 

I'm a big fan of the Super Cam. Always feels really solid, as easy to place as any other 4 CU and has a slightly increased range.

 

The Link Cam is a nice toy, good as a 2nd piece in a wide range of sizes, but I wouldn't build my rack around them.

 

The large DMM 4CU's are light, cheap, and reliable.

 

I've used Dragons, mostly good, but I'm not a big fan of the thumb stud on any cam (old camalot, Link Cam's, and Dragons), but the size, action and weight are great.

 

I've used tech friends

I've used camalots

 

IMHO a good rule of thumb is that quite a few people have successfully climbed harder routes than you on every brand of gear being bandied around here. None of it will hold you back, it's all solid and reliable.

 

Bitching about differences between TCU's, Master Cam's, BD 3 CU's, Aliens, New Aliens, Dragons, Friends etc. Is like complaining that you got a got chocolate cupcake instead of an vanilla cupcake. STFU and eat you cupcake already, either that or give it to me!

 

 

[Tyson.g]

Jeez...on our way (as usual) to once again proving Godwin's Law over an increasingly stupid debate over which cams are better than which cams.

 

 

boring, tiresome, pointless, idiotic, childish...seriously.

 

fwiw...I mostly use a combo of Met. TCUs, C3s, or Master Cams (and occasional Aliens) in the grey to yellow (Metolius) sizes. I like them all...sometimes I like one more than the other. Sometimes it doesn't matter. ymmv.

 

For a first set...pick one...and they'll be fine. Later on you'll try something else and will either like it more ... or less. But they're still fine.

 

 

What he said!

 

ymmv but ....

Wild Country Zero's in the really smalls size (up to blue TCU)

a mix of TCU's and Master Cams Blue to Red.

A mix of DMM 4cu's, with 1x gold link cam and 1x Metolius Super Cam up to the #4 DMM 4 CU (Equivalent to an old #3.5 Camanlot or a new #4).

 

I'm a big fan of the Super Cam. Always feels really solid, as easy to place as any other 4 CU and has a slightly increased range.

 

The Link Cam is a nice toy, good as a 2nd piece in a wide range of sizes, but I wouldn't build my rack around them.

 

The large DMM 4CU's are light, cheap, and reliable.

 

I've used Dragons, mostly good, but I'm not a big fan of the thumb stud on any cam (old camalot, Link Cam's, and Dragons), but the size, action and weight are great.

 

I've used tech friends

I've used camalots

 

IMHO a good rule of thumb is that quite a few people have successfully climbed harder routes than you on every brand of gear being bandied around here. None of it will hold you back, it's all solid and reliable.

 

Bitching about differences between TCU's, Master Cam's, BD 3 CU's, Aliens, New Aliens, Dragons, Friends etc. Is like complaining that you got a got chocolate cupcake instead of an vanilla cupcake. STFU and eat you cupcake already, either that or give it to me!

 

 

[billcoe]

stuff can be made in china and be of quality if the company requires it and pays for it. But most of the companies don't want to pay, hence the crappiness of many things from china. I believe that BD is requiring and paying for quality.

 

I would choose a set of cams that is very common around where you climb. Chances are you will be combining your rack with your partners so for the sake of familiarity with cams, choose whatever your partner has. Unless it is some strange chek brand. BD and metolious are common.

This is excellent advice. In fact, some real hard climbers have answered already with some real good advice. Certainly personal preference is a consideration. I've seen pics of Dean Potter climbing with U-stem cams, and pictures of him with BD C3s. Someone explained to me that it can often be a route based choice. Furthermore, your needs are most likely very different than what Dean Potter needs on a consistent sized desert splitter crack and what some of these folks posting need based on what they are doing.

 

I suspect that any of the major cam Mfg will do the trick for you. Both Metolius and Wired Bliss are real sweet cams, but the nice thing about getting a set of Black Diamonds is that most partners you will pick up will have solid familiarity with the color scheme and be able to pluck the right one out of the crowd fast when they need it.

 

BD has made them in China for some time about as close to error free as anyone can make a cam anywhere. You can google and find some alleged "failures" of BD cams, but I don't believe that is actual Mfg issues. So that issue really should come down to if you want to support made in China products over US made stuff. Personal call there.

 

BTW, the only 2 things I might counter above:

Wired Bliss are heavier with less range.

Lighter with less range. http://www.clydesoles.com/Front/Camsbrand.html Of note to others: Wired Bliss is coming out with some big cams for Wyde stuff. They have a #5 now (3.25"-5" weight 10.5oz)and will be coming out with up to a #9 soon. Expect it to be smoother and cheaper than a valley giant. http://www.facebook.com/WiredBlissCams?sk=wall&filter=2

 

And 2nd,the DMM cams suck in comparison to the BD's. Not just because they cost more either. I love DMM products in general as they usually make kick-assed things. (Wild Country Heliums Woot!) I was reading a Layton rant on CC.com about how extendable slings SUCK, and didn't really click on how that was (the few extendable slings I'd encountered like on the Aliens worked pretty sweet) until Adam brought his brand new DMM Dragons down to Red Rocks. The slings are longer than I had encountered with other extendable sling cams, and as a longer extended sling will get in your way when high stepping, you tend to want to rerack the sling in the non-extended position. Try and re-rack an extended sling with one hand when you locked off and are pumping out with the other -wow! Turns to hate in short order:-) Due to the sling suckage all of us significantly preferred the Camalots over the DMMS for longer/harder routes and we didn't really use the DMM'S. Certainly your mileage may vary and personal preference rules here, if you are doing long easier routes and can generally re-rack on a nice stance, you may love that feature.

 

However, Bill Bellacourt of Black Diamond pointed out something else on the slings of importance to you as it relates to climbers generally being lazy: he asked me, "how many times have you replaced your slings on your cams".... I thought back, well, I might have retied a new piece of 1" tubular on a 20-30 year old Wild Country solid stem Friend...or not, but really, the correct answer was *cough* cough* "close to never". The phat BD slings will go maintenance free until you get tired of looking at them and pawn them off on a buddy so you can buy new ones and the slings will still be safe to take a screamer, whereas you WILL be replacing the 8mm Dyneema sewn skinny slings on the DMM's regularly or they will be failing when they get older. I've heard of people re-doing their slings, but don't believe I have many in real life. LOL. We tend to be a lazy bunch. The other reason the DMM cams stayed home is that the cams themselves are made of narrower material so as to make it lighter, but they really didn't lighten the weight much, and skinny is not something I want in sandstone and softer rock. (Red Rocks is generally pretty solid rock with a few softer rock bands up higher in spots, but we had the Camalots so we took them instead).

 

You might consider looking for a used deal as well. Stuff pops up here and on Mt Project for a pretty reasonable price on occasion.

 

Good luck!

[Laughingman]

Anybody else use the Metolius "Supercams" I am debating picking up a gray one. For the weight it seems ideal for the alpine (I have seen several videos in which Steve House sports one on the side of his rack).

 

 

[selkirk]

I've got the grey one

Permanent place on my rack.

[billcoe]

I started out loving them. Love the range. Love the large surface area where the cam touches rock. Love how they hold. They seem more prone to getting stuck to me, and they are a tad heavy. But my love affair started to end when had 1 of them have the cable derail which caused the cam lobes to jam. ie, not work. The cable could be pushed back to the center, but it would slip back within a few pulls of the triggers. I figured "what the heck", it can happen, traded it for a new replacement. Not before Adam and Ujahn had borrowed it and had it screw up on Epinephrine 1-2 years back or so. (this was the large size and it's perfect for that climb)

 

The love affair ended when Ujahn, Adam and I had one have the cable pull right out. It actually pulled out on Adam while Adam was leading the long middle 2nd 5.10 pitch of Wild Turkeys just a few weeks back. The large size again. Much mirth and cackling from the peanut gallery who were not dealing with any issues.... until the cam had to be removed of course:-) Stud like Adam it might not matter at all cause he just keeps cranking and is solid on that stuff. Doesn't need pro he won't fall. If you are an old, fat, out of shape office worker cough* cough* looking at a cam that doesn't work in the off-fist size crack and you are panting like a dog while the sweat rolls off your fingers on a hot day, it's not heartening or a pretty sight at all. At all:-) Imagine carrying one up something like Epinephrine, say, 2000 feet of climbing, as a doorstop or a penalty weight, not as an actual piece of pro because it doesn't work. All the way up, all the way down. Not used. Boat anchor. The love affair will end. LOL! It make you think about it, and it certainly would piss you off if you were pushing your limits on some other climb and didn't have the key piece work at the spot you needed it to plug into, but you got to carry the extra weight anyway.

 

Heartening is taking an old chewed up one back to REI and getting a brand new one. It's rare for a Wild Country, 4 cam Metolius, Wired Bliss or a Camalot to have that kind of issue, it looks more common for the Supercam. Metolius supports their products though. (the story above is the first time I've ever heard otherwise).

 

 

Have you seen the Supertopo discourse on Chinese made cams? http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1664162&tn=0&mr=0

[Laughingman]

Anybody else have problems with the supercams?

 

Did you contact Metolius and tell them of the problem?

Edited November 15, 2011 by Laughingman

[layton]

I'm with Sol as far as the Master Cams go. I've tried them and got frustrated with them as well as had difficulties cleaning them.

 

I rocked Aliens back in the day when they didn't break, though they'd wear out way to fast for me. Three years of heavy use and the lobes were cooked. Hard to beat if you are into techno aid on El Cap. Though I've probably climbed El Cap 5 times without any Aliens now.

 

Now a days I use a set of TCU's and a set of C3's. The C3's definitely take some getting use to as they are a slightly different size than the Aliens/TCU's . And so far I've had great luck with the durability of them. They do ice up fairly easy though.

 

If I had to live with a single set the rest of my life it would be TCU's. They last a long time, they are easy to clean, don't freeze up that easy, and made by a solid company.

 

And if opinions are weighted by how fast you can climb the nose leading every pitch I've got Hudon beat by 9 hours. But Mark is still one of my idols.

 

 

Mikey, Sol, or Blake - So since the three of you all are not on the mastercam bandwagon, can you please specificy detail why? Also, if you like TCUs, aren't they pretty much identical to mastercams in their sizing? If that's the case, what do like more about tcus. To me, mastercams are way more flexible - thus way more secure. Next, up are the C3's. Waaay less flexible, and I've had them blow placements. I do not feel as secure with a C3 because they are so damn stiff and the heads are way smaller and sliperier than mastercams. I'll concede that I know there are placements that C3s excell because they are narrower, but the vast majority of my placements on smaller sizes don't require a super narrow head. I alway concidered a C3 a "specialty piece".

Granted I don't lead 5.12 and I haven't broken one (which would shake my faith in them, as blowing a couple placements on a C3), but I feel like I've climbed enough, and had to make some pretty creative placements from "marginal stances". another point? what does the grade matter? if a sketchy run-out 5.6 with funky thin pro is wicked hard for someone, wouldn't it be the same situation? do cracks fundamentally change at a certain grade?

 

Anyway, hope I can get a better less emotionally charged answer. The reason I ask is because I always want to have full faith in my gear, and the mastercam hate kinda shocked me. At first I really missed my aliens, but after the withdrawl, I haven't looked back. I just want to be using the safest gear.

 

For those of you that for some reason get emotional about this (check your priorities yo!) please don't respond, I don't care what you have to say.

[Lodestone]

Anybody else use the Metolius "Supercams" I am debating picking up a gray one. For the weight it seems ideal for the alpine (I have seen several videos in which Steve House sports one on the side of his rack).

 

 

Just looking at the numbers, I don't know why anyone would choose a gray Supercam over a #2 C4. The gray Supercam is heavier (6.5oz versus 5.5oz) and has less range (1.65"-2.5" versus 1.46"-2.55").

 

 

 

Chad

[Crack]

Those Master cams are soOOo sexy yes, but the kevlar trigger cable BLOWS. A few years ago after they first hit the market, I ran into someone who was an employee at some reputable Colorado based climbing/skiing company who repairs gear nationwide (Neptune Mountaineering?). She said they replaced the triggers on Master cams more than they fixed any other piece of gear, camping and skiing included.

 

I had a couple on my rack in the smallest sizes, before the trigger cable broke on my moderately used blue one and then got thrashed on the removal.

 

I still like them, or really want to like them, but they are third to what I prefer in the "regular" Metolius and ALIENS for the small sizes.

 

I've never liked the action of the C3s, but swear on C4s past the .5 size.

 

And debating weight on them tiny cams...really?

[G-spotter]

Gray, yellow, red, blue zero cams.

Orange, red TCU

Green and up Camalots.

[JosephH]

A few years ago after they first hit the market, I ran into someone who was an employee at some reputable Colorado based climbing/skiing company who repairs gear nationwide (Neptune Mountaineering?). She said they replaced the triggers on Master cams more than they fixed any other piece of gear, camping and skiing included.

Yeah, the first batch or two had an issue with the trigger glue hole not being adequately degreased before gluing. Since fixed. Have doubles in all sizes and Offsets, never had a trigger blow yet. Ditto on the four Super Cams. Bill's tale is the first I've heard of any Super Cam troubles (no fun taking anything up Epi you don't need or can't use).

[stevetimetravlr]

Its hard to blow a trigger when you are a top roper. The Totem cams have revolutionized the cam market with their new design. Ground breaking cam engineering and lightweight. If I was just starting my rack I would go with the Totem cams, no question in my mind after using them. Their independent axles are equivalent to 2 cams in one cam. Rock solid, no walking. I was making a sketchy shallow placement yesterday with a BD yellow cam, and was wishing I had a Totem cam instead because I knew the BD would walk and possibly blow, but if I had a Totem it would have been rock solid. I ended up placing 2 questionable cams and a shit stopper and still was not happy, instead of what would have been one bomber Totem cam. Totem cams rule, especially in those flaring or shallow granite or basalt placements.

[JosephH]

Its hard to blow a trigger when you are a top roper.

No doubt, but don't you have a hard time placing gear with the rope in your face all the time?

[JasonG]

C'mon guys.... :kisss:

 

Maybe back to Layton's questions?

[layton]

i'm gonna re-post in a new topic since this one is mired in sh#t