Sir_Donald Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 While surfing the Smith Rock board the other day, what did my wondering eyes gaze upon but the very recipe for HELL FIRE and damnation. Behold - the true nature of the DFA. ************************************************** Posted by Dr. Flash Amazing on May 17, 19102 at 11:19:05: In Reply to: chipped&drilled posted by curious on May 16, 19102 at 17:05:50: Many of Smith's routes harder than around .12c are manufactured in some fairly tangible way (i.e. blatant pocket chipping/drilling, not just cleaning-related stuff). But this holds true at many, if not most climbing areas around the country. It varies by route, though, and it's by no means a phenomenon that occurs on every hard route. There are routes like Bongo Fury, which basically would not exist at all and half the route is drilled pockets, or the Burl Master which is, to quote one A. Watts, "held together with a gallon of glue." Then there are routes like Churning or Kings of Rap that have drilled pockets linking natural features together, which is more common. And then there's Rude Boys (and hopefully a couple others), that are completely unmanufactured. Chipping is, unfortunately, a common (some would argue necessary) feature of difficult routes, as there are frequently sections of blank rock between sections of holds, so the chipping allows one to free the moves between natural features, rather than breaking out the aiders. Some call chipped holds "aid," but you still have to pull down. "Artificial free," perhaps? Essentially, if not for the chipping, the quantity of hard routes would be drastically smaller, and 5.13 would probably still be the limit of hard climbing. Now, Dr. Flash Amazing's watch says that it's about time for some people to get really mad about chipping and begin hurling invectives, as is the natural way of things. Back to work, Dr. Flash "artificial free" Amazing ************************************************* Let the FLAMES begin - lol Quote
Off_White Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 He's not doing the chipping, he's just airing a dirty little secret. There's a similar thing in the aid world, with "enhanced" hook placements and all: just a few taps and twists of the drill make a hook feel much better. The issue is full disclosure, and I confess I haven't been aware of the extent to which routes routes have been manufactured at Smith. Thanks for the info though trollmeister. Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 So, uh, besides several statements of fact regarding the prevalence of chipping and the fact that Dr. Flash Amazing climbs chipped routes, what's the mega-controversy you're alluding to? DFA has already been slagged relentlessly for being a sport climber and all, so how might this situation differ? Ho-hum. Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Off White: He's not doing the chipping, he's just airing a dirty little secret. There's a similar thing in the aid world, with "enhanced" hook placements and all: just a few taps and twists of the drill make a hook feel much better. The issue is full disclosure, and I confess I haven't been aware of the extent to which routes routes have been manufactured at Smith. Thanks for the info though trollmeister. Actually, according to Alan Watts in a follow-up post, there is far less chipping than the Doctor makes it out to be, at least percentage-wise. All the same, it is FAIRLY common, at Smith and elsewhere. For your edification, some of the chipped lines at Smith: Churning Kings of Rap The Quickening Bongo Fury The Burlmaster Coleslaw and Chemicals (and its 5.14 neighbors) Scene of the Crime Crack Babies (a fairly aesthetic job, at least) Split Image (chipped after the FA) Go Dog, Go Blackened Scarface It seems likely that several other routes on the Aggro Wall are chipped as well, given the dubious rock quality and the length and difficulty of the lines, as well as some other routes on the Churning Buttress. Quote
AlpineK Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 Oh my god a personal attack. Alert the moderators. Quote
allthumbs Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 No shit Mr. McGoo. Trad, sport, scrambling, who cares as long as it's vertical. "It's all good", as they say. Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by AlpineK: Oh my god a personal attack. Alert the moderators. Good Lord, you're right! Someone save the Doctor from this merciless onslaught! Quote
bonehead Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 The mega-controversy Sir Donald alludes to: The link between DFA and the proposed Cogentrix plant...! The TRUTH is out there..... Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 Shh! Shh! Dammit! The Doctor told Cogentrix to keep that quiet! *ahem* Nothing going on around here with any power plants. *whistling nonchalantly* Quote
Greg_W Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 Knowing that these hard routes are manufactured are the reason that I have chosen not to climb hard routes such as these (that and I am so suck) [ 10-11-2002, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Greg W ] Quote
bonehead Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 I suck too And if I know a route's got manufactured holds I'd pass... But those are self-imposed ethics; to each his own.... Quote
thelawgoddess Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 manufacturing holds seems to be that one step too far. though i can't climb anything that hard anyway! guess we all suck ... Quote
chucK Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 I'm sorta busy at work now ( ) and I don't have a lot of time to artfully pose this question of mine, or even think it out very carefully, but here's an off the cuff try... What really is the big difference between chipping a hold and placing a bolt? I mean: they both make the particular line easier to climb. In aid climbing I wouldn't think there'd be ANY distinction. As far as free climbing, one could make the distinction that a chipped hold helps you to actually move up the line, while a protection bolt is only for safety (though one couldn't make this distinction for an 'A0' bolt like on Lovin' Arms). Does anybody buy this? Even if you don't fall, the presence of protection bolts definitely helps one to ascend a line (in fact, I would posit that they help even if you "skip the clips", provided you have the option, i.e. are roped). I'm sure we can all reduce this to absurdity by defining chipping to be carving a staircase or escalator into the rock, but let's stick to the case of "artful" chipping, i.e. not very much rock removed. Is it the "sneakiness" of chipping that is at issue? Off White talks of "full disclosure". Obviously, noone will mistake a bolt for a natural feature. Would chipping be OK if the holds were obvious drilled holds, spray-painted purple? Anyway, lots of ways to attack this. It is an interesting topic to me. What are your thoughts? Quote
JayB Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by chucK: What really is the big difference between chipping a hold and placing a bolt? Chuck: This seems less like an honest question than a rhetorical gambit in which you've attempted equate bolting with chipping to me. Do you really believe that the two are equivalent? Or are you just playing Socrates here and get folks thinking about some of the assumptions they've taken for granted? Couldn't the same be said for pitons, cams in sandstone, etc? Seems like in both of the latter cases you're modifying the rock in order to avoid falling to your death. Not sure if you're just trying to get folks chatting about the ethics of bolting again ( ) or have another objective in mind. Care to share? Quote
richard_noggin Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 That is why you have a first ascent list in the back of most guides so everyone knows who is doing what. If I can't send, I give it away or take it down, I am responsible for my actions. Look to the FA list for quality and character for routes you want to do. I have been known to seek out certain route setters climbs...A group'ie so to speak. And BTW when it come to choping, retro bolting if it's not your route don't ph-k with it. If a climb needs choped or retro bolted it's up to The FA or a consensus of the local climbers of the area. When it comes to chiping or glueing just say know Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 Yeah just find the ones called "Beckey Route" There is always character in those Quote
chucK Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JayB: Couldn't the same be said for pitons, cams in sandstone, etc? Seems like in both of the latter cases you're modifying the rock in order to avoid falling to your death. Well I would say it's the same with pitons left fixed. You have made the line easier. Sometimes the scarring from pitons makes the line easier. Piton scars have often been compared to chipping, and a big debate follows this line differentiating the motives of the chipper and the piton basher. quote: This seems less like an honest question than a rhetorical gambit in which you've attempted equate bolting with chipping to me. Well duh! Wasn't that line you quoted from me asking exactly whether that was the case? I don't have the "sinister" motives you want to ascribe to me though. I think that no matter what people say here, most use bolts and on some level accept them as status quo. Some do this more begrudgingly than others. In my post I am not saying bolts are bad. In fact, nowhere do I even write chipping is bad! My question is genuine. Assuming you accept bolting as legitimate, which I think I do (I certainly do implicitly accept them when clipping them), why do we draw the line so easily with chipping? Psychological aid versus physical aid? Why is one acceptable and the other not? Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 chipped routes are not good. Even if they are bolted. I have climbed them later to discover them being chipped or glued to make them easier. One in particular was to make it 10b rather than more difficult. I was not happy to discover this is an accepted tactic. Any Joe Schmoe can chip or glue a route into submission. This all goes with drilling new holds too. Go do it but don't expect climbers to think it's a grand line all the time. There is enough rock to go around for climbers to climb validating that these methods are not necessary. If you bolted it and it's to difficult leave it for the next guy. Don't just try to get your name in the guidebook. If a route requires these tactics then go back to the gym and find the fake climbing there. [ 10-11-2002, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Cpt.Caveman ] Quote
RuMR Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 perhaps you could differentiate bolts/chipping by looking at the damage to the rock? Bolts can be pulled (as a few members on this board have done) and patched and are virtually invisible. A drilled pocket/chipped edge is definitely visible. Bolts also don't alter the physical difficulty of the line, only the level of danger. In my mind there is a HUGE difference between a bolt and a chipped hold. Quote
RuMR Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 Hey Caveman... What do you think about chipping a route into a HARDER line than what was there...I don't personally agree w/ it, but do know of it being done. Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 What for. Find a harder line and accept that you did it. It's basically similar." I want to make a harder route cuz I am cool" sort of attitude instead of thikning about leaving the route as it was challenging you in the first place. Be glad with the route dont destroy it. Quote
RuMR Posted October 11, 2002 Posted October 11, 2002 That was kinda my feeling. There are several routes at smith that i did earlier repeats of. Being a little bit shorter, i'd find a different way than the "intended" way, only to come back to link it and find the hold broken off or the hold filled in w/ glue. This was after the first ascent had been done!! Quote
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 12, 2002 Posted October 12, 2002 Sombody wanting to fulfill theier egos perhaps... I 1s tsent 5.12d but now the hold broke and it's 5.10a My condolences to dorks like that Quote
RuMR Posted October 12, 2002 Posted October 12, 2002 Spot on... couldn't even be stoked that other people were climbing on the line... Quote
chucK Posted October 12, 2002 Posted October 12, 2002 quote: Originally posted by RuMR: Bolts also don't alter the physical difficulty of the line, only the level of danger. In my mind there is a HUGE difference between a bolt and a chipped hold. I guess that is the essence of at least one of my questions. Why do you/we consider changing the danger of a line HUGELY different than altering the physical difficulty? As for the rock-damage question...how do you feel about the A0 bolt on Lovin' Arms? Surely this is somewhat analogous to chipping. It's an artificial hold! Caveman makes a good point. With chipping you could make the line as easy as you please. Almost no bottom limit. With bolting you can basically remove as much danger as you want but it would still be difficult to climb. Quote
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