mattp Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Good point there, Gene. Most people I know work more than 40 hours a week, have no significant retirement benefit, and are worried about medical expenses. All but few have seen their earnings stagnant or decrease over the last 10 years. Most have a retirement investment but that number, too (the amount held) is shrinking. And most of my friends who have advanced degrees of some kind are in no better of a boat. I don't think that most workers are doing better or even keeping even with the decline in union strength. I work for a non-union State agency and my colleagues who have worked for similar agencies that were union-represented say that the union didn't manage to extract any real entitlement or higher wages or other "fluff" that we don't enjoy except that things were better defined when it came to grievances, seniority, and performance measures. They all say "better defined." Not "entitlement defined" and none say "more generous." I don't think that state employees' unions are necessarily a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I can understand Bronco's dislike for unions but I just don't get the typical anti-union sentimentality. What did we do to so many people? The very existence of unions contradicts the religious dogma according to which the "market" will take care of everything because unions are the workplace expression of community that threatens the obscene profits of the already uber wealthy. Anti-union bias is not only inscribed in our laws but institutions like corporate media make sure the sheeple are exposed to a constant stream of anti-union propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCKY Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 No union leader is going to condone that violent behavior because it does not support their goals. Once again, there are bad apples in every bunch but that doesn't mean we should throw out the whole bushel. You bring up an interesting question. What would happen if there were no more unions? I believe that most people seem to think that things would go along same as ever or get better. Unions are on the way out but look at how our work force has changed. People regularly work more than 40 hours and not spending time with their family. Wages are stagnant or dropping when compared to actual purchase power. Pensions are gone. Medical is becoming too expensive even if you got it. From what I see, the things that unions fought hard for are being taken back. Without unions around, your 40 hour workweek and overtime pay and everything else that we call workers rights may disappear. The only organization that lobbies for workers rights (union and non union workers) is the unions, especially state workers unions. Without unions, who will lobby for us? How long till all workers rights are taken away? Anyone who seriously thinks we don't need unions (and their occasional stupidity) needs to seriously think about where we would be without because you may get what you wish for, good or bad. Well said :tup: your much more PC than me I can be irascible on the subject! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCKY Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Dunno fuck-O. I went to college; paid for it myself. Also, Unions might have gotten the 40 hour work week.... guess we don't need em anymore; especially if they are going to embrace this thuggish behavior. Those fat-cat leaders can eat-a-dick and so can anyone who allows and supports their antics. With that kind of talk It would appear you did not get much in the way of Intelligence from that collage education! So your say'n that you where put to work and out of the house and on your own at 18 like me and paid for a collage education too.... what a man!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhalteke Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 "With that kind of talk It would appear you did not get much in the way of Intelligence from that collage education! So your say'n that you where put to work and out of the house and on your own at 18 like me and paid for a collage education too.... what a man!!!! " No, I went to University, not arts and crafts class. In response to your second question, yes I did. Some of us have a little more in us, whereas some of us just talk shit about those who do. Say hello to mediocrity for me asshat :kisss: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Just don't round up your electrician brothers to storm the jobsite at 4:30 am. I am gonna round up a bunch of raging assholes and be at your place at 4:30am. Make sure to bring the burn barrels and picket signs you commie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) Those fat-cat leaders can eat-a-dick and so can anyone who allows and supports their antics. You are right that any leader who condones or supports violence should not be allowed to represent workers. I like how people think that union leaders rake in the big bucks. I can't speak for other unions, but our leaders (of our local 191) make a whopping 10% more than the working journeyman. I can understand Bronco's dislike for unions but I just don't get the typical anti-union sentimentality. What did we do to so many people? It's America's infantile sense of entitlement, lack of historical knowledge, and lack of gratitude for the more human work conditions that unions won for all of us. It's easy to poke at unions from the secure position of lifetime federal employment and the like, but, as the latest poverty figures show, workers could use some advocacy and political power right about now. Bronco's got a legit beef about some thugs...but most of the other anti union types here, like America in general, have had no direct experience with unions one way or the other, and are simply parroting the talking points that from those with a somewhat more self-centered agenda. Oh, and is there something wrong with practicing the arts? Has beauty gone out of fashion now? Or has self absorption and show-boating replaced the arts? After throwing up in my mouth all through the 10th Anniversary of the Event that Turned us into Simpering Crybabies, it would seem so. I can only hope there won't be a 20th. Edited September 13, 2011 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I for one am getting tired of the corporate media promoting negative stereotypes of the ILWU, and am thankful that there are folks like Ronald who are doing what they can to counter them. "A Kelso man was arrested Monday on suspicion of four felony charges in connection with last Thursday's vandalism of the EGT grain terminal at the Port of Longview, Cowlitz County Sheriff Mark Nelson announced Tuesday. A Longview woman also was arrested and released Monday on suspicion of misdemeanor charges as part of a longshore union effort to block an incoming train outside the terminal last Wednesday, Nelson said. More arrests are expected in the next few days, Nelson said. Ronald Patrick Stavas, 45, of Kelso was arrested Monday night on suspicion of first-degree burglary, second-degree assault, intimidating a witness and sabotage, according to the sheriff's office. His bail was set at $50,000. Stavas was identified as one of the hundreds of people who stormed the EGT terminal about 4:30 a.m. Sept. 8 and damaged a security shack, assaulted guards and spilled corn product from a mile-long train parked inside the terminal, according to the sheriff's office. Stavas was identified by a witness at the terminal who later saw a video of him confronting a television news crew outside the longshore union hall on 14th Avenue in Longview, according to Nelson. In the video, which has gone viral online, a man is seen swearing profusely and threatening a Portland news crew..." [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzoMNgDMELo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 His name is actually "Fuck You Cocksucker". I'm not sure why you're calling him Ronald. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 we would be remiss to not mention a corporate goon giving you a slow fuck to the mouth aka Kenneth Lay, etc. I sort of prefer the union goon to those guys. Not that I'm saying that Mr. Fuck You Cocksucker is any sort of award winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Let me guess: with the teachers' strike in Tacoma (first time since 78), the impending grocery workers strike in Washington, and the ILWU/EGT conflict, union busting corporate shills are doing all they can to demonize organized labor (oh my god, Ronald, what a filthy mouth!), which explains why the tools are dutifully "catapulting the propaganda" on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 [video:youtube]imouDc5u3as Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 the tools are dutifully "catapulting the propaganda" on this board. seems to me pro-union folk have thus far been more prominent in this here thread than t'others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 we would be remiss to not mention a corporate goon giving you a slow fuck to the mouth aka Kenneth Lay, etc. I sort of prefer the union goon to those guys. Not that I'm saying that Mr. Fuck You Cocksucker is any sort of award winner. At least Fuck You Cocksucker doesn't use code language to mask his true feelings like some corporate spokesmen do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Corporate Idea of Fun: The Company Picnic. Corporate Idea of Reward: Employee of the Month. Nuff said... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 The complaint against those 'overpaid union hacks' is laughable given corporate executive compensation these days. FKN re-Tards, I tell ye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Not to mention you've got to be some lame MFKR to actually WANT to suck corporate cock like some do here. That's some cream of wheat with skim milk, fo sho. It's hip to be square! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 What would you do without corporations? You gonna refine your own oil in your mom's basement? You gonna research your own medicine? Build your own car? All these anti-corporate type assume that anyone with more $$ than them somehow got it dishonestly. They can't fathom that someone might be more innovative, intelligent or harder working than them. Even if someone does inherit some $$ whats wrong with that? I hope to leave something for my kids, I think we all wish for that. Don't hate someone because they are more clever at making $$ than you are. Ask them for a job. If you don't like the terms, quit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 What would you do without corporations? You gonna refine your own oil in your mom's basement? You gonna research your own medicine? Build your own car? All these anti-corporate type assume that anyone with more $$ than them somehow got it dishonestly. They can't fathom that someone might be more innovative, intelligent or harder working than them. Even if someone does inherit some $$ whats wrong with that? I hope to leave something for my kids, I think we all wish for that. Don't hate someone because they are more clever at making $$ than you are. Ask them for a job. If you don't like the terms, quit. corporations, like governments for that matter, are as washington said, like fire - useful, but dangerous, and requiring zealous oversight and tending, which is a major function of a union, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 What would you do without corporations? etc dude, it'd be useful if you didn't make stuff up so that we don't have to spend our time pointing out that nobody said what you claim people said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I can understand Bronco's dislike for unions but I just don't get the typical anti-union sentimentality. What did we do to so many people? Whether or not people like unions has little or no effect on the percentage of the private sector workforce that’s unionized. The way that corporations feel about unions doesn’t matter all that much either in the long run. What does matter is whether or not consumers want to buy the stuff that unionized workers make. If the stuff that unionized workers make seems like the best deal to consumers, they’ll buy more of it than the stuff that non-unionized workers make. Then unionized production will increase, and so will the share of the private sector workforce that’s unionized. If the stuff that unionized workers make is overpriced or crappy, or both relative to what non-unionized workers make – then consumers will buy less of it and the percentage of the workforce that’s unionized will continuously decrease. It’s ultimately consumers that destroy unions, by refusing to buy what they make.* Ultimately unions understand that what people decide to buy determines whether or not they stick around. They also seem to understand that under conditions of open competition, people generally haven’t been willing to pay a premium to buy the stuff that they make. That’s why they’ve historically used whatever means are at their disposal to force people to buy their stuff – either through legislative rules that make their competitors products more expensive, or direct coercion to keep competitors out of their field and/or consumers from doing business with non-unionized competitors. I’m not sure if you were looking for a real answer or not, but those two activities account for the majority of the hostility to unions amongst the general public. *If you doubt that – just ask yourself how many of the pro-union posters on this board own products made by the UAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 the tools are dutifully "catapulting the propaganda" on this board. seems to me pro-union folk have thus far been more prominent in this here thread than t'others? good thing too, but it doesn't seem mutually exclusive. In fact, pro-union types have mostly been playing defense against the usual union-busting peddled by tools. Anyway, better get ready for an onslaught of smears and lies as labor conflicts are busting open all over the place due to widespread attacks on wages, benefits, and work conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 good thing too, but it doesn't seem mutually exclusive. In fact, pro-union types have mostly been playing defense against the usual union-busting peddled by tools. Anyway, better get ready for an onslaught of smears and lies as labor conflicts are busting open all over the place due to widespread attacks on wages, benefits, and work conditions. such is life, what can ya do? not sure i buy your whole analysis, jay - ultimatley, yes, consumers care most about price, but unions don't have to make things more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I'm willing to posit that if you replace "Nazis" with "Koch Brothers" Godwin's Law holds in any thread where the discussion revolves around unions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 not sure i buy your whole analysis, jay - ultimatley, yes, consumers care most about price, but unions don't have to make things more expensive. I completely agree – that’s just the way things have generally gone. If unions dedicated themselves to giving employers and consumers the best value for their money, bar none (if their production more than justified their wage premium), then their problems would be over. Employers would be competing to hire them, and consumers would be clamoring to buy whatever they made. You probably understand better than I do why unions haven’t done so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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