num1mc Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 A synopsis: Climbers get off route and benighted in a storm on Hayes, and set off a SPOT like device. USAF to the rescue. http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2011/04/01/1947296/beacon-proves-golden-in-mens-mountain.html Now the questions about both the rescue and the "right thing to do". http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1463619/A-hard-ethical-decision-we-need-help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 RETURN THE GEAR! Of course they will pay any and all costs first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 First, a technical clarification is required on the OP: As I read the article, it was an Alaska Air Guard mission, not USAF. Secondly, PDude should quit being a douchebag thief of mega-gear and be a good human and give it back. If the rescuees reward him, so much the better. Everybody wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Sounds to me like PD wants to punish the person he knows for requesting a rescue by keeping their gear. That Dingus Milktoast said it right when he declared it wasn't about ethics, it was a question of character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 DMT's got it goin' on, as do many others on the ST thread. I could especially agree with graniteclimber's logic in his lengthier post on page 3. It does seem like PD is out for blood from the Major for some reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
num1mc Posted April 10, 2011 Author Share Posted April 10, 2011 First, a technical clarification is required on the OP: As I read the article, it was an Alaska Air Guard mission, not USAF Good on you Sobo, payback time for the AAC/Access Fund/TPL/Peshastin Pinnacles debate which ragged between us. I know you've been waiting for me to make a miss step, so you could pounce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Clearly the classy thing to do is to ship the climbers their gear back with a simple accounting of the expenses incurred. Something like this: Cost of ferrying gear down the mountain: Blood, sweat, and tears Cost of air taxi to transport gear: $500 Gas for 300 mile car trip to pick up the gear: $100 Getting a free ride off the mountain AND your gear back: Priceless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 If you have something to say to someone about calling in a rescue say it straight up. This passive aggressive internet game smells more like a smear campaign than an honest attempt to elicit advice from total strangers, which is silly anyway. Lame. Maybe better to just send a note to the rescued climber that says, "Brought down your gear. Call me if you want it back." That puts the onus on the friend to do the right thing rather than rubbing his nose in it, which is guaranteed to kill any remaining friendship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Rad, I am the last person who would criticise anyone's decision to ask for a rescue having been on both sides of the fence. I have been rescued and lost a load of gear and never expected it back (and did not get it back). I have also rescued climbers and lost gear in the process and never asked to be reimbursed (and was not). I stand by my suggestion and would have done exactly that: send the gear back with a note explaining the expenses incurred and let the gear's owner decide what is right. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Gumbies called a rescue way too early and for no reason. They shouldn't have even been on the mountain if they couldn't hang at least 24 hrs to see if it cleared. Also they should have had a stove for water and some kind of way to get a weather report. They deserve to lose their gear, the 2nd party was doing clean up at considerable risk. If they want gear back, full expenses and fee for retrieval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkW Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Gumbies called a rescue way too early and for no reason. They shouldn't have even been on the mountain if they couldn't hang at least 24 hrs to see if it cleared. Also they should have had a stove for water and some kind of way to get a weather report. They deserve to lose their gear, the 2nd party was doing clean up at considerable risk. If they want gear back, full expenses and fee for retrieval. +1 The article in the link quotes the rescuers as describing them as "experienced" and not at all bumbling gumbies. It was however the first trip with their new battery powered insurance policy. They lost their way because of 4 ft of snow, dug a cave and activated their beacon. Nice! Risk free winter climbing in alaska. It's gonna be the next big thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraken Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I think this is really unfortunate. These guys are being portrayed as "experienced/veteran" climbers, yet they failed to follow even the most basic of Alaskan mountain climbing protocals. No GPS? No wands? No stove? Reality check: You're on a major Alaskan mountain in the winter. It's this kind of publicity that does not bode well for climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I don't care what the article or the rescuers say, the facts say gumbies. Seriously all they were relying on for route finding was their tracks in the snow? In Alaska in winter? LOLZ!!! Even after getting lost you can find your way back if there's visibility, they didn't even wait for that visibility. Risk free? With choppers and a 40 mph wind? Hardly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 A lot of hate going on for a couple guys who did things that many of us would do to (talking about the wands, stove and GPS, not the emergency call) The reality of the sport is that we make mistakes and usually get away with it. Sometimes we are perfect. Sometimes we don't get away with the mistakes. Sometimes we don't come back. These guys made a string of mistakes. They made a call that maybe wasn't the best. At least they are alive and able to learn from a mistake. Who is perfect that can cast the first stone? Who hasn't made serious error in judgement? I would say that every trip, or every climber, has some mistake made at least on a small level. If you think you are perfect, then you are delusional. Why hate on them so much with so little info? Who can say the situation they were in? maybe it was warranted and only they can answer that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Well said Gene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 First, a technical clarification is required on the OP: As I read the article, it was an Alaska Air Guard mission, not USAF Good on you Sobo, payback time for the AAC/Access Fund/TPL/Peshastin Pinnacles debate which ragged between us. I know you've been waiting for me to make a miss step, so you could pounce. Yeah, you're right, Mark. I've been doing absolutely NOTHING for the past many months except lurking these boards and waiting... waiting... waiting for you to make a mistake, so I could leap upon my prey, disembowel you, and feast upon your entrails... Yeah, that's what I've been doing with my life... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 allow me to clarify I'm not hating on them. I've screwed up in the mountains more than once including getting lost and an injury. I'm just pointing out the mistakes so someone else might learn from them. The other threads/articles and this one just seemed to be concentrating on an irrelevant issue, what should happen with the gear. When the gear wouldn't have been an issue if they hadn't messed up in the first place. IMHO looking at the mistakes made they were a few levels over their heads. That was the first mistake they made. You want to sugercoat it? Go right ahead, people can go on believing they were experienced enough, so everyone just get a PLB and it will be alright. Bullship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 We all got it coming, kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 wishing I was still a kid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 We all got it coming, kid. Yep. Rookies-inexperienced folks make mistakes due to lack of training and or ability to evaluate a situation. Experienced folks can get into bad situations too. Sometimes an attitude of, "I've done this 10,000 times before," causes complacency. The folks injured in the Phantom slide a few days ago had a lot of combine experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 Spot Messenger - $100 AK expedition gear - $5,000 Getting heli-picked off the mountain AND getting your gear back - Priceless All joking aside, it's good these guys got home safe. No one will deny that. Like Gene said, we've all made mistakes and this could just as easily been anyone reading this thread. I can think of a time I might have pressed the button if I'd had one. Judge not lest ye be judged. This is now the reality in backcountry travel. People are going to use the technology that is available. As long as an emergency device exists which limits one's communication to "I'm OK" or "I need rescue", people will push the emergency button when they are "in trouble". I'm sure when you are sitting in a storm in a snow cave after a forced bivy on a summit attempt in a remote part of Alaska, you aren't thinking super clearly. Don't blame the people. People are going to do what people are going to do. Maybe it's the technology that needs tweaking so more detail can be given to rescuers, who can then make a more informed decision on whether to risk resources on a rescue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 (edited) Maybe it's the technology that needs tweaking so more detail can be given to rescuers, who can then make a more informed decision on whether to risk resources on a rescue. satellite phones would be better but they are expensive. for now. Another thought. There is sometimes a idea that this technology is unnecessary and that "back in the day" the real men would not have used them. BUt it would be interesting to ask some hardmen from days long gone, who have been involved in some nasty situations, if they would have pushed the button if they had one? Would Jeff Lowe called the rescue on latok? How many times would Joe Simpson? Instead of cutting the rope, would Yates push the SPOT? Jim Whickwire in AK with his buddy stuck in the crevasse? (book Addicted to Danger) Colby Coombs on foraker? These guys were in TOUGH situations. Would they have pushed the SPOT button? Edited April 11, 2011 by genepires Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 You left out Doug Scott on the Ogre and Martin Boysen stuck in that crack on the Trango Tower. Most of those guys were in a situation where they couldn't hope for much even with a SPOT. Between the issue of time and local rescue resources, folks far afield are pretty much on their own, plus or minus others who might be in the area. Places like Alaska & the Alps are different, with rescue resources and trained personnel readily available. Not to mention Mt Hood... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 OK. Point being though that is the previous generation had the technology and resources, would they have called for a rescue or toughed it out? High altitude rescue has come to the himalaya now. Didn't some high profile guy get saved soloing some hard line on nanga parbat or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wfinley Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I have been in a pretty much exact same position as these guys: caught in a storm on a high Alaskan peak, exposed bivy on a ridge at high altitude (13K), and forced to descend loaded slopes in deep snow. We had a sat phone - and we went so far as to call Alaska Mountain Rescue and give our coordinates before we began the descent. The thought of asking for help crossed our mind - but it was a fleeting wish that we would never have actually voiced. By the time the heli showed up these guys had viz. Sure the slopes were loaded - but they were on a ridge above 11K - how bad could it really have been (most high alaskan ridges are pretty wind swept)? You can always trigger point releases while downclimbing - as countless other people have done. As Clint pointed out - the worst part of all this is that these guys are being touted as "veteran climbers". It's incidents like this that lead to regulation and levies being placed upon climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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