Steep Snow

[mzvarner]

I asume that for hard packed snow (alpine ice?) you can either place a pretty solid ice screw or pound in a good picket

 

How do you protect steep semi-consolidated snow? Do you carry a bunch of pickets and take the time to dig a deadman? Or do you climb close to the rock wall and hope you can find spots for nuts, cams and pitons?

[summitchaserCJB]

I usually do the former. I dig a pit for a deadman.

[genepires]

rock pro will usually be stronger than snow pro. For the time it takes to dig a trench for deadmaning a picket, you can usually find several spots for rock pro. The weight of 4 pickets is the same as a very reasonable sized rock rack. So for these reasons, it you know that rock is available (like ascending a snow filled gulley), I would rather carry a small rock rack than pickets..

 

But, if you are going up a snow face, then the rock gear would be dead weight.

 

For steep semi consolidated snow, you may not need any pro. Your steps should be solid enough and the self belay reliable enough to climb safely. Pro-less climbing should not be done with a rope to other partners though as a fall from you would kill everyone. If you are roped up, then you either have a running belay or a regular belay.

 

By semi consolidated snow, I assume that you mean that the top couple of inches of snow is soft. This makes vertical pickets weak and you need to bury the pickets deadman style. This takes time but you must do it if the terrain and your experience requires it. Place one picket per rope length. When your last person is taking out the picket, you are placing a new one. Repeat till you have none left in which case you are belaying your partner to you for the lead change over.

 

There are lots of specifics to making a good deadman that you can read from the standard mountaineering books.

Edited November 14, 2010 by genepires

[summitchaserCJB]

It depends on your experience. I see deadmans as faster than rock pro because usually snow is more abundant than rock but it depends on the climb. So you can take the line you want to take and place pro when you want. Also, rock tends to funnel snow (see avalanche shoot) so those can be dangerous (I have a specific climb in mind here- Stuart Glacier Coulior).

[summitchaserCJB]

Gene- You forgot crevace travel. Then you definitely would be roped up and usually not placing pro. A small point but one none-the-less.

[NoahT]

It depends on your experience.

 

Agreed, the more experience you get, the less you carry pickets.

 

 

[summitchaserCJB]

ya they still have a place though. It seems as though my picket has gone missing..

[genepires]

To dig a decent t slot for a picket takes time and energy. And the usual method for making them (on steep snow) actually weakens the snow holding the picket. People usually make a small platform to stand on, and dig a slot above. But you have removed snow that holds the picket. plus the angle of the sling slot would have to be so far to give sufficient snow in front of the picket that the slot length would be 4 feet. (well below the stance) IMO for steep snow (stuff over 30 degrees), the only viable picket placement is vertical if the snow strength allows. T slots may look good and feel good to a pull test but can fail easily in a real life forces. It is rather hard to describe with words, but you have to look at the volume of snow in front of the picket to determine the strength. The volume of snow is the wedge of snow that is above the sling, in front of the picket and below the surface.

 

Or you could use that time and energy to climb near edge of the snow coulior and place nuts, hexes and cams as you come across them. thereby getting multiple gear placements per rope length instead of one questionable picket per ropelength.

 

Plus, snow sloughs tend to go down the middle of the gully. Climbing on the edges keep you out of those and maybe even safe from small avi's.

 

Stuart glacier coulior is a classic example of a route where rock gear is a better option than pickets. It is granite which lends itself to rock gear. The snow isn't that steep. (I never felt the need for running pro there) and you need the rock gear for the several pitches of the west ridge. The team needs a couple for the small glacier crossing on the approach and descent but carrying 5 for the gully is extra unneeded weight. Besides, who wants to have so many pickets clanking all over the place?

 

Don't get me wrong about pickets. They have there place as running pro. I have placed lots of them, some good and some bad. But if I had the choice, see above.

 

what does "rock tends to funnel snow (see avalanche shoot) so those can be dangerous"? Are you talking about the tendenancy for gully to be a garbage shoot? How does that relate to the question of pro?

Edited November 14, 2010 by genepires

[DPS]

I agree with Gene. If rock pro is available it should be the first option, ice screws second, snow anchors as a last resort.

[summitchaserCJB]

There's lots of climbs where a picket is the only option for fast movement.

[mountainmandoug]

I agree with Gene, the order of desirability is rock pro, ice screws, and snow anchors. Snow anchors are time-consuming to build and rarely all that strong, and honestly I think that the preferred technique will be to practice in order to gain enough proficiency in climbing steep snow that when pickets are the only viable option you will be comfortable soloing. Usually when pickets will work you can get excellent self-belays with an axe or full-depth daggers with picks. You should be able to kick pretty good to excellent steps. In those sorts of conditions I'd say soloing, even bringing a second tool in order to solo, is worthwhile. I usually like this better than roping up and using questionable snow anchors.

 

I do generally carry at least one picket in these circumstances in case I need to belay a follower. People vary in there comfort level on this sort of climbing.

 

If conditions are unusual such that the steep snow is very scary to solo, (fluted sugar snow, a couple of inches of mush over a crust, or something like that) it may simply make the climb un-safe by any method.

 

 

[mzvarner]

Genepires, I agree with what your saying. My buddy and I were screwing around with T- slots and deadman anchors after a crevase rescue class just above the Paradise ranger station last spring. The snow was heavy and wet and we dug REALLY deep and then ran to shock load the picket and we were able to pull them out. Im sure hard consolidated snow might take more force, but I bet that is easliy generated from a fall above only one picket per rope length as some have mentioned doing.

 

 

[genepires]

the one thing going to picket placement is that the forces onto it are less than that while rock climbing. It is assumed that the falling snow climber is trying his/her hardest to self arrest in addition to the friction during sliding. Hopefully the climber is wearing wool. Plus any bouncing onto rocks removes forces. (good for pro but not your body)

 

the rock climber has less of these frictions to minimize the forces onto pro.

 

Spring (second to winter) is a real tough time for deadman.

[Jens]

Pickets and Deadmen are rarely carried by experts (except for fixing lines on expeditions and fluted ridges).

[AlpineK]

I've placed pickets a few times, but only as a last resort. As in we need an anchor but we have no other options.

 

Rock Gear > Ice Gear (Placed in ice) >> pickets

[Mtguide]

Were you stomping the snow down hard as you buried the deadman? Seems to me that in heavy wet snow, anything like a picket or ice axe laid horizontally across the slope should hold really well, even with a heavy climber falling onto it. I've held very large people with just a boot-axe belay, so a well-placed and well-packed-down deadman ought to be pretty damn solid.

[genepires]

it is all in the snow and forces. A boot axe in good snow holding a static force will work. But shock loading (dynamic force) puts much more forces on the snow pro. There are so many variations in snow (and therefore strength) and applied forces that an example for one person can not be a predictor for another.

 

actually digging the t slot deep may have made it weaker. If the compressed snow is above the picket (like if the picket is dug down 2 feet, filled in one foot and then stomped the remaining foot of snow) then the stomped snow may not help at all. It could slice under the compressed snow. Best to have the compressed snow in front of the picket. Like age hardening a large square section of snow and put the picket behind. (with a sling slot going through the middle of the square) This obviously takes a fair amount of time and is really appropriate for something like crevasse rescue.

 

compressing a 2ft by 2ft snow square is a good idea for vertical placements too. The top half of the snow holding a picket is much more important that the bottom half. If you HAD to use a vertical placement picket in soft snow, a couple of hard butt stomps in the snow (sitting down) would compress a good sized area if you got a standard american sized ass. Prolly a good idea to add some foot stomping of the snow as well.

 

all this is rock gear and ice gear is not available.

[G-spotter]

Pickets and Deadmen are rarely carried by experts (except for fixing lines on expeditions and fluted ridges).

 

I seem to recall that the FA party on the south face of Siula Grande aided a 20m? pitch on an overhanging cornice off two leapfrogged pickets.

[KirkW]

Pickets and Deadmen are rarely carried by experts (except for fixing lines on expeditions and fluted ridges).

 

I seem to recall that the FA party on the south face of Siula Grande aided a 20m? pitch on an overhanging cornice off two leapfrogged pickets.

 

Ya got a link? I'd love to read about that.

[DPS]

I aided over the very large cornice on Early Winters couloir by leap frogging a couple of pickets. I first had to aid the left hand rock wall for 20 ft until able to get to where the cornice's angle kicked by to 95 to 100 degrees. Aiding on the pickets was interesting, transferring weight to the pickets drove them deeper into the snow. Moving above the picket pulled it out. I had to make quite a few short moves.

[G-spotter]

Pickets and Deadmen are rarely carried by experts (except for fixing lines on expeditions and fluted ridges).

 

I seem to recall that the FA party on the south face of Siula Grande aided a 20m? pitch on an overhanging cornice off two leapfrogged pickets.

 

Ya got a link? I'd love to read about that.

 

my mistake - right climber, wrong mountain. it was Santa Cruz in Peru. see 2002 CAJ p 146

[Pete_H]

How do you protect steep semi-consolidated snow?

 

 

With your skis, of course.

 

[Tyson.g]

[genepires]

that has got to be rough on the right leg.

[AlpineK]

that has got to be rough on the right leg.

 

When your right leg gets tired just do a kick turn to work out your left leg.