SKULL HOLLOW SOLD OUT

[billcoe]

FOR THOSE WHO CARE (I did the full copy/paste thing, not a word below the next period is mine).

 

"The Ochoco National Forest received approval in October 2009 from the Pacific NW Recreation Resource Advisory Committee to begin charging a $5 fee for camping at Skull Hollow Campground near Smith Rock. This was done over significant objection from the climbing community, who are the primary users of the site. The Forest justified the fee as necessary to operate and maintain the campground to standard and provide increased security.

 

Now they are including Skull Hollow in a prospectus for sites to be turned over to a private for-profit concessionaire to operate. Concessionaires will be invited to bid on what they will charge the public, and you can pretty much bet it will be a lot more than $5. The funds will flow to the private firm, with only a small percentage being paid to the Forest as a franchise fee. Often concessionaires offset franchise fees by performing in-kind work, in which case little or no cash flows to the Forest.

 

The process of turning a facility over to concessionaire management is done internally and administratively, with no public notice. No public comment is solicited either on whether to do it or on how much the concessionaire's fees should be. Future increases in fees are approved administratively, with no public notice, comment, or input, and no advisory committee approval required.

 

I thought you would like to be made aware of this impending change. Skull Hollow Campground is, for all practical purposes, about to pass out of federal hands, probably forever. If the local climbing community has any influence with the Forest, use it now or forever hold your peace.

 

Here is the Ochoco's letter: http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/centraloregon/passes/documents/Notification%20ltr%2007.15.10.pdf

 

--

Kitty Benzar

President

Western Slope No-Fee Coalition

PO. Box 135

Durango, CO 81302

970/259-4616 (Landline)

970/946-2909 (Cell)

www.WesternSlopeNoFee.org"

[kevbone]

So....is that bad?

[billcoe]

So....is that bad?

[Buckaroo]

 

[rocky_joe]

Biggest load of horse shit I've heard today.

[letsroll]

Just camp outside the fence line. Make a new camping area. That is what I have been doing. No fee. Will be hard to sell camp sites when they see people camping for free in vertually the same spot.

[letsroll]

Oh, and that blows!!!

[rocky_joe]

I've also been camping outside the fence for some time. It just sucks that we're being forced to pick from two shitty options now: pay up for an UNIMPROVED camp site, or trample more land to create new sites. Granted, there are a lot of sites already established outside the fence, but as soon as the privatization bullshit happens and the prices get jacked up even higher, more people will move outside the fence and trample even more ground. It's horse shit.

[ivan]

the rent is too damn high!!!

[rocky_joe]

in fact, the (economic) rent is inefficiently high.

[KirkW]

Just camp outside the fence line. Make a new camping area. That is what I have been doing. No fee. Will be hard to sell camp sites when they see people camping for free in vertually the same spot.

 

 

So how long do you think they're gonna let you just park outside the camp ground and shit in a hole? I camped outside the fence the last time I was there too but the damage from the extra use is pretty obvious all ready and by trampling more ground out there we're just giving them reason to impose further restrictions. Which you can bet your ass are coming if we continue to camp outside the fence.

 

For once I decided that rather than just get pissed and spray about this issue I'd try doing something about it. I contacted Kitty Benzar (the author of the email in the OP) today and she gave me some very useful information that I'm in the process of looking at and forwarding to an Environmental attorney friend of mine who is interested in looking into the possibilities of a lawsuit. This issue, if put in front of a judge, is gonna be real hard for the FS and the Citizens Advisory Group to defend.

 

They did not make this decision with public consent which they are required to do by law.They received a large amount of input on Skull Hollow from climbers specifically who were adamantly opposed to any fee but they instead chose to categorize us as "druggie climbers" and made the decision on their own personal opinions rather than public input. Kitty feels (and I agree with her) the the FS has handled this whole thing poorly and the imposition of the fee in the first place is a violation of federal law. Not to mention the move to privatize the camp ground which I'm told they have all ready done with a company from Utah.

 

Any one else got any better ideas or wanna get involved in this should shoot me a PM. My atty. friend is gonna do as much as he can, this kind of issue is exactly why he became a lawyer, but it's gonna take more than just one dirtbag and a lawyer to get this turned around.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[ivan]

Thoughts?

 

good luck. the 4th reich took over a long, long time ago. the Man showed the Red man plain this wasn't his land, why should it be any different for us?

[Alex]

Bummer to read about this. I climbed at Smith alot in the early and mid 90s and Grasslands was my home away from home, where the only thing that you had to worry about was the cows (and then later, the crowds!!).

 

But it's been a very long time now that a day-use fee has been in place for the park/parking. 5$ for camping doesnt seem outlandish in the grand scheme of things especially with so much use.

 

But agree, giving this administration over to a private party seems just wrong.

[corvallisclimb]

Over the past couple years the place turned into a shit hole with more people living there in there RV's constantly running generators than people coming in from Seattle/PDX for the weekend. It's no wonder they did what they did. In all honesty I don't think it really has anything to do with climbers. Sometimes change is inevitable and sometimes its for the better. It's funny how much people care about two acres of cow shit and junipers. Public lands abound... so use em. IMO they needed to do something with the place... as it was fucked in its current state.

[G-spotter]

All I want is a campspot with a fire ring and a picnic table. Why not let the park bivi site campers have fires?

[Off_White]

Privatizing and turning public campgrounds over to private concessionaires is a really ugly trend. I'm not fond of what its done for camping in Icicle Creek.

[mattp]

I've seen it work out OK, Off, but I agree.

 

I think it may have something to do with the policing aspect to managing a campground.

 

I say this based only on my comparison of personal experiences at local campgrounds. The campground "hosts" in the Icicle and at the Cle Elum Campground, to name two local examples, have turned out to be very unfriendly to campers in a way that in my experience has been completely contrary to the notion of public lands. However, at the Clear Creek campground near Darrington I found the campground hosts to be great and their running of the place as a campground was a significant improvement over the prior situation where the Forest Service had allowed homeless people to camp long term and rent-free. I don't know, but I guess that it may have to do with the fact that in Icicle Creek, with hundreds of campers every weekend of the camping season, they spend a lot of time "correcting" misbehavior and get rather jaded. At Darrington, with less than a tenth the traffic, they probably don't have nearly so many problems and I bet this allows them to take a much more human approach to the role of "host."

 

I don't know, but my guess is that the privatization of collecting campsite fees is maybe OK but the privatization of even the "early detection" phase of policing a busy campground may be not so good. (I think that the the campground hosts at Leavenworth or Cle Elum call for the LEO's when they need active law enforcement backup.) The difference may simply be a personality thing (Darrington got good people while Leavenworth and Cle Elum got bad) but I suspect it may well have to do with the demands placed on the couple who has chosen to spend their Summer living in a motor home, collecting camp fees and making sure things are running OK.

[goatboy]

All I want is a campspot with a fire ring and a picnic table. Why not let the park bivi site campers have fires?

 

This might be a tongue-in-cheek rhetorical question on your part, but I can only imagine the Smith Rock folks are a little edgy and conservative around fire since their own employee started that huge fire down there in the 90's that torched large swaths of the state park, eh?

 

Which is not to say that it couldn't be managed appropriately now, but just pointing out the historical context to your question.

[goatboy]

How about the camp "hosts" at Red Rocks?

 

I heard from someone that the same grumpy old couple who "welcomed" people to Red Rocks in the fall/spring were working out of Icicle Creek in the summer months (this was a few years ago) - anyone else notice this?

[KirkW]

Over the past couple years the place turned into a shit hole with more people living there in there RV's constantly running generators than people coming in from Seattle/PDX for the weekend. It's no wonder they did what they did. In all honesty I don't think it really has anything to do with climbers. Sometimes change is inevitable and sometimes its for the better. It's funny how much people care about two acres of cow shit and junipers. Public lands abound... so use em. IMO they needed to do something with the place... as it was fucked in its current state.

 

So how would you feel if the next time you arrived at Wolf rock you found it gated with a camp host? Sound impossible?

 

This issue isn't about two acres of cow shit and junipers it's about the slow but steady privatization of these public lands that you are telling us to go use. I wish the issue was as simple as you claim but your statement really shows your ignorance of the issues at hand. It's too bad you aren't more interested in doing something about this. Perhaps once Wolf starts getting more traffic and they decide to require a parking fee or charge for sleeping in the dirt out there you will start to care.

[G-spotter]

All I want is a campspot with a fire ring and a picnic table. Why not let the park bivi site campers have fires?

 

This might be a tongue-in-cheek rhetorical question on your part, but I can only imagine the Smith Rock folks are a little edgy and conservative around fire since their own employee started that huge fire down there in the 90's that torched large swaths of the state park, eh?

 

Which is not to say that it couldn't be managed appropriately now, but just pointing out the historical context to your question.

 

Even before the park fire you couldn't have campfires at the bivi site. I recall that as being a big reason why people drove out to camp at the grasslands in the first place.

[billcoe]

This issue isn't about two acres of cow shit and junipers it's about the slow but steady privatization of these public lands that you are telling us to go use.

 

This.

 

As far as the "Oh I'll just mozey off down the road and camp on other BLM land" folks, good luck, if they can make this bullshit stick, I'd expect that "no camping" on BLM land administrative rules and "no parking" signs will be the next thing you see. Seriously. If the issue was truly just this little piss hole, no worries. But it's not.

[corvallisclimb]

So how would you feel if the next time you arrived at Wolf rock you found it gated with a camp host? Sound impossible?

 

This issue isn't about two acres of cow shit and junipers it's about the slow but steady privatization of these public lands that you are telling us to go use. I wish the issue was as simple as you claim but your statement really shows your ignorance of the issues at hand. It's too bad you aren't more interested in doing something about this. Perhaps once Wolf starts getting more traffic and they decide to require a parking fee or charge for sleeping in the dirt out there you will start to care.

 

 

Kirk-

 

My point has nothing to do with managing our public lands/campground etc. But thanks for trying to call me out on my ignorance in that aspect. My point is the Grasslands/Skullhollow turned into a shit hole becoming over run with squatters who try and live their lives on public lands in their RV's. Shit was getting stolen, and it became a worry to leave your tent and stove up for the day. The place was on a downward spiral. Something needed to happen, and now it looks like that something is happening. And obviously it doesnt jive with the climbing community, hey when does it? Plain and simple. Yes it sucks, I definatly had some fun partying there from time to time for sure. But you wouldnt catch me dead out there the past few years due to it's sad state of affairs. It's great you have the time and energy to fight such causes, and I applaud you for your efforts. I personally don't have the time nor energy to worry about such things. And I wish you the best of luck with your quest to make a difference and fight for those of us that can't. As we all know this is never an easy task.

 

[elaine]

Thanks, Bill for getting this in the Rock Climbing Forum.

 

I have not camped at the grasslands in at least 2 years for lots of reasons that many others stopped ( RV's and their generators, theft, and too much partying), but that doesn't mean that I'm supporting what might be taking place with a private group owning it.

 

I do know that the Smith Rock Group was trying to do some of the work out there at the Annual Spring Thing event with fire pits, picnic tables, and maybe getting some of the dead junipers out of there. I can't say that I'm opposed to a fee as long as the fee does something to keep the place maintained. At the very least some TP and a pressure washing in those vault toilets - that's been my only request.

 

Whether you camp at Skull Hollow or even on the other side of the fence amongst the shit pies, this will impact climbers and places to camp. Doesn't McPheeters Turf also close during the winter months? The bivy cannot handle the additional crowds if Skull Hollow closes during the winter months as it has been proposed, or has other restrictions in place. What will climbers have to do? Make a reservation to camp at the Bivy now?

 

 

I suggest that people send letters to the Ochoco NF or to Kitty at the Western Slope - No Fee in the original post.

 

Thanks for reading!

[KirkW]

So how would you feel if the next time you arrived at Wolf rock you found it gated with a camp host? Sound impossible?

 

This issue isn't about two acres of cow shit and junipers it's about the slow but steady privatization of these public lands that you are telling us to go use. I wish the issue was as simple as you claim but your statement really shows your ignorance of the issues at hand. It's too bad you aren't more interested in doing something about this. Perhaps once Wolf starts getting more traffic and they decide to require a parking fee or charge for sleeping in the dirt out there you will start to care.

 

 

Kirk-

 

My point has nothing to do with managing our public lands/campground etc. But thanks for trying to call me out on my ignorance in that aspect. My point is the Grasslands/Skullhollow turned into a shit hole becoming over run with squatters who try and live their lives on public lands in their RV's. Shit was getting stolen, and it became a worry to leave your tent and stove up for the day. The place was on a downward spiral. Something needed to happen, and now it looks like that something is happening. And obviously it doesnt jive with the climbing community, hey when does it? Plain and simple. Yes it sucks, I definatly had some fun partying there from time to time for sure. But you wouldnt catch me dead out there the past few years due to it's sad state of affairs. It's great you have the time and energy to fight such causes, and I applaud you for your efforts. I personally don't have the time nor energy to worry about such things. And I wish you the best of luck with your quest to make a difference and fight for those of us that can't. As we all know this is never an easy task.

 

Sorry Tyler, I took your post to be in reference to the entire issue. This isn't just about Skull Hollow to me.

 

As many have pointed out it's not exactly deluxe lodging. My concern lies with the fact that this is just another fine example of the powers that be overstepping their bounds. If we don't speak up how can we expect to be heard? If we don't hold our government agencies accountable who will? At what point does charging for use of public lands become illegal? All over the state public lands are being sold to the highest bidder and you and I are the ones that pay the profits for these private, for profit organizations. It's not a cut and dried issue and every campground, trail head, and shit house that we don't argue about just seems to justify their actions. In this case many people did argue about it and made some very valid points. This was all ignored and policies in direct conflict with public input were implemented. If this decision isn't worth the time and energy it would take to get reversed, what would be worth it?