NW Forest Pass - boycott payment, right?

[Doug_Hutchinson]

This may be a tired old topic, but here goes: I just got a "US Distric Court Violation Notice (i.e., ticket)" for not paying the NW Forest Pass. I have always stongly opposed the fee demo program and all its children, but get confused. Is the NW Forest Pass part of the fee demo and, if so, is payment still voluntary? The whole concept is sickening but this ticket is little more formal and Federal than some I received years ago for not having a similar pass.

Should I not pay? Should I do anything to make it more clear that I am not paying to express opposition?

I have signed many petitions already and visited the WildWilderness web site. It's the name of the specific pass and ticket that confuse me.

[jon]

The NW Forest Pass IS part of the fee demo program. If you choose to fight this in court chances are you will get off with a reduced fine or not one it all. I would contact Scott Silver and ask for his advice. I have a butt load of stuff to post regarding Fee Demo, I'll have it up shortly.

Please remember the reality of Fee Demo, even if you totally disagree with it and buy a pass to avoid getting a ticket, you are actually voting for it and not helping the situation. Please don't buy these passes!

[vegetablebelay]

Yep, I'm working on my third ticket this year. I just got my first certified letter a couple of days ago saying pay or else. I paid the 50 bucks last year but not gonna do it this year. Should be a interesting diversion.

Vegetablebelay wants to fight the power.

[robertm]

Whats up with requiring one of those F*#&@ing passes at Blue lake trail head at Washington Pass? I thought all Liberty Bell and SEWS, NEWS etc was in the National Park? I saw several people with tickets last weekend including some Canadian and out of state plates that I am sure have no clue about paying these fees.

[daylward]

The thing is, once you get a ticket, you're no longer dealing with the fee demo program, you're dealing with the US District Court. If you don't pay a federal fine, it could cause you big troubles in the future; when I got my ticket, I had the choice to pay it or fight it in court in Spokane, and according to the judge I talked with on the phone, failure to pay or appear in court could land me a warrant for arrest. So I shelled out; 'cause I didn't have time to drive to Spokane. If you can fight it in court, it'll add more weight to the resistance, but I don't think it'll do you or anyone any good to refuse to both pay or show up in court.

 

[Stefan]

robertm:

The North Cascades National Park boundary ends just past Panther Creek. So any parking after Panther Creek and east you are in Mt. Baker National Forest Land or Wenatchee National Forest Land. Blue Lake trailhead is officially on Wenatchee National Forest Service land.

[Alpine_Tom]

If you look here: http://www.nps.gov/noca/pphtml/feespermits.html

you'll see that there are areas in the NCNP where they're requiring the trail pass.

We were up by Heather Meadows last weekend, where they have rangers in a little booth selling the trail passes, and they told us that they need to get revenue this way, since they're not logging in the NP any more. That's how well informed the rangers are.

[allthumbs]

Instead of fighting the goddamned government all the time, and believe me I'm all for it on a lot of issues, why not just pay Uncle's blood money ($30 annually) and not worry about it. I'd much rather be outside fooling around in the mountains with impunity, than worrying about showing up in some stinking courtroom or running from 5-O. $30 is cheap to get the bastards off our backs for the season.

[Retrosaurus]

Wake up all thumbs,

It's $30 this season. What about next season. This is our land. It does not belong to the forest service. It is public land that the forest service is entrusted to manage for us. A freedom has been taken away from us, our children and all future generations. Do you really want to support this action? Yeah, it's easier to bend over and take it, but it turns my guts.

Retro

[jordo]

The Yank system of fees kills me! I guess Canucks totally take reservations and fees and permits for granted -- unless you're in the Rockies you can park or camp wherever the hell you want. At the Raineer park gates a month ago, the Ranger informed us of the mandatory entrance/use/whatever fee to which we told her, "actually, the guy in the back seat, we're leaving him on the summit," to which she responded -- absolutely straightfaced -- "it doesn't matter, he still has to pay." Couldn't get enough of that one! It is said that Leonardo da Vinci upon entering Austria ,I believe, was charged, say, two Lira as a toll. He apparently replied, "Two Lira? Why that's a bargain! Back in Italy it costs me five Lira just to get my member in, but here I get my whole body in for just two!"

[David_Parker]

I wouldn't pay the fee or the fine. If a warrant goes out for your arrest, I'm sure it's not a felony so you really don't have anything to worry about than maybe getting thrown in jail. Go for it. Call one of us to post bail and then go to court. Post your court date on CC and then all 50 to 100 of us will show up at the court. That will get their attention in front of a judge!!! Best publicity money can buy. We'll invite the press too. If we're courageous enough to not cave in, we will get more attention. Civil Disobediance works!!! We can take up a collection to help out. United we stand, divided we fall! I know it sounds corny, but think about it!

[Tod]

I'll chip in for that! Maybe we could get a lawyer involved....?

Far fetched, but something that could work and is very inviting.

Tod

[payaso]

d

[payaso]

These tickets seem unenforceable because they are given to the vehicle, not the driver. The only reason you pay parking tickets is because you'll be going through that city again. Therefore I always pay them in Seattle, but probably wouldn't in say, San Francisco. Since the jurisdiction for the Forest Service is Federal, normal police will not know anything about these violations. Any lawyers out there know what the legal liabilities are between you and your vehicle? What if your roommate drives it up to Alpental and doesn't pay? Are you really responsible?

[Guest]

One more thing. Is it parking at the trailhead or the trail usage?

What if somebody - outdoors don't exist for them - just wants to take a break driving say to Spokane and wanders around, sees the Alpental lot, stops, goes to the bathroom (constipated), then in awe of the views (or ski lift equipment) just walks around for 30 minutes, not close to the car. Does he get a ticket? If so then the lot should be clearly designated as a pay parking lot just like in the city. No matter what you do with the forest. Isn't absence of any pay signs a good enough reason not to pay?

If it is entering into the forest that is chargeable what do vehicles have to do with it?

Now I understand that deforest service (thanks, eric) hasn't figured things out completely yet, but this is what we could possibly take advantage of.

I received a ticket for parking at Vantage in 1999 without that decal thingy and the letter said I could contest in writing because I live so far. I did and the charge was dropped. My reasoning was the lack of signs/info. I even went back (climbing there isn't that bad and took a photo of the lot.

I don't have a pass for this year and am slowly learning the power of writing to politicians. I'd advice to not ignore but actively wright/oppose/fight the tickets. I'll definitely post what happens if I get a ticket.

Finally, last week we ran up the Tooth medweek after 4 pm and received a ticket for just $5 from deforest service (don't they have homes to go to?).

[Alpine_Tom]

Well, you can't get your car tabs renewed if you have unpaid parking tickets. I'd guess that the Feds would tell the State about these tickets, and the effect would be the same.

Dave Parker: civil disobedience may be gratifying, but it doesn't change anything. Despite the unending high-profile publicity, did the WTO protests in Seattle change anything? Hell, it couldn't even get a cop who assaulted two innocent bystanders fired!

The judge you appear before doesn't make the laws, Congress does, and you don't have the clout (unless you're Boise Cascade) to affect what happens there.

As long as the alleged representatives of the outdoor community like the Mountaineers and REI are backing the trail pass system, we can just shut up and pay the money to subsidize logging.

[This message has been edited by Alpine Tom (edited 08-10-2001).]

[Cpt.Caveman]

Those things are lame and we have discussed this before. I use mine for backcountry Tp baby

I never get a permit to go up in the enchantments either. I have yet to see a ranger back there. I saw more bears than rangers... If I do get one for that then I will be sure to use it for Tp on the following trip.

What does Scott Silver call it? Oh yeah the Land of the Fee

[payaso]

This article today seems very similar to the forest pass. How can they prove that the owner of the vehicle committed the crime?http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/local/34715_photo10.shtml

 

[Lambone]

Hey David,

Did you ever here of the fact that user fee's go to improvement? Or would you rather that the forest service sell off the land to timber companies to get their money?

The US Forest Service and Fish and Wildlife Departments don't get shit from the government as it is. What is so bad about chipping in thirty bucks a year to the cause? You can afford the gas, why not just buy the permit?

Or are you one of those guys who is too cool for government regulation? Don't forget that our recreation is a privilage offered to us as a result of the American system.

[forrest_m]

lambone - all i can say is that if you believe that the money is going to trail improvement just because that's what the forest service tells you, then you probably also believe that mcdonalds food is healthy because they put "grilled" in the name of the sandwich.

i will try to find the link to the discussion we had about this a few months back. the tip of the iceberg is that the money goes directly into the general fund and is NOT earmarked specifically for trail maintainance or anything. essentially, by buying the pass, you are subsidizing the vast amounts of money that the FS loses on timber sales.

try this, there are also a bunch of links to sources outside CC.com for more info: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000288.html

[This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 08-10-2001).]

[Lambone]

Sure, so I should believe you though? Or anyone else who posts on this silly site.

What makes you an authority? I am just curious, this is not an attack.

I have taken several Environmental Issues courses in both Washington and Montana. I have heard all the dirt from Biologists and Rangers in the department. I was a student of F+W for a while... All claim that paying user fees is better than trying to cheat the system.

My point is, I have heard tons of people claim that the government lies. Well I don't doubt it, but why should I believe you?

[Cpt.Caveman]

Lammy the government lies, and cuts corners in every manner... If you dont belive me that is your loss. BTW I am an authority on anything posted on these boards

[Dru]

I work for the government. I lie. In fact I'm lying RIGHT NOW IN THIS VERY SENTENCE. Nuff said.

[forrest_m]

Lambone - I am not an expert.. I was introduced to the system when we got a warning for a pass we didn't know we needed. Mildly irate, I began doing my own research and reading everything I could about the issue, and became more and more outraged by what I learned. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of doing your own research and coming to your own conclusions about this and not accepting at face value that the USFS says about it.

I understand your position - I just don't agree. I have made an effort to send letters to everyone I can think of regarding this issue. Following is the text of one of those letters which summarizes my position. If you would like, I can email you a very good essay by David Dittrich that provides a lot of the statistical backup and sources for this information. (It's a bit long to post in a thread.)

<begin letter>

Dear Sir,

I am writing to express my strong opposition to the Forest Service “Demonstration Fee Program,” and to voice support for a significant increase in Forest Service (USFS) recreation budgets. Please include this letter in the record for Public Witness Testimony on April 16, 2001.

The current fee program is misguided, both in the details of its current implementation and in the underlying idea that one cannot use public lands – in any form – without paying some sort of fee. I believe that there is a place for user fees: I have purchased “Sno-park” passes annually for ten years and I regularly pay the fee to use Forest Service campgrounds. However, the most basic right to walk on public lands should be available to all citizens free of charge.

The finances of the USFS are widely recognized as being in bad shape. The agency is under great pressure to become less wasteful – and to do so in a visible way. However, rather than undertake serious reform in its finances – such as the hundreds of millions of dollars the USFS has lost and continues to lose on timber sales – they have instead focused on such minor income streams such as Recreational Use Fees to try to demonstrate to Congress that they are cleaning up their act. Since it is the only action they are taking, they are eager to show that it is a success, even if this means stifling public outcry through deceptive statements and outright untruths.

The Forest Service’s conduct has been disingenuous at best. In dealing with Congress, the USFS has used revenues from the fee demo program as evidence that they are saving money by passing costs directly to the user. But in their marketing campaign to attract public support for the program, the USFS claims that fees will result in increased funding for maintenance and construction of trails and parking facilities. The truth is closer to the former. Money from the fee program goes into the General Fund, and no overall increase in recreation funds has materialized since the initiation of the program. Yet the USFS knows that they must prevent a public outcry if the “demonstration” program is to be considered a success. Thus signs claiming that “fees pay for this trail” continue to appear at trailheads throughout the country.

Particularly grievous is the process by which the fee demo program was introduced: USFS literature claims that the “demonstration” in “fee demonstration program” is to determine the level of public support for the concept of direct user fees. The existence of a hefty fine for non-payment of the fee makes this data highly suspect. Nevertheless, the USFS continues to use these statistics as “evidence” of widespread public acceptance of the program.

Please defend the rights of all Americans to make the simplest uses of public lands without additional fees. We already own these lands, and the maintenance of basic access to them is a legitimate priority for government spending; in fact, such spending is essential to the goal of good stewardship.

<end letter>

 

[Lambone]

Hmmm... Interesting. Thanks!

I should just keep my mouth shut when it comes to things that I really don't know about.

I bought a pass just so I didn't have to worry about a stupid ticket. Maybe I'm part of the problem, but don't go calling me a wussie.

The ranger was a nice old lady, maybe she was really a devil in disguise!