Belay Methods

[ketch]

I don't do gym so never tried the BUS. I know that I can stack a rope while belaying using SSS but I can't see how I would have any kind of rope managment with the BUS

[kurthicks]

it's called practice.

[Wakaranai]

Some slack in the line (dynamic belay) can soften the catch and is actually safer than having "no slack", in some cases. Steeper climbs or roofs usually. True that I'd prefer a tight belay from a newbie than extra slack though. Keep them off the ledge! I like belaying like the Canucks, overhand brake, reach beneath brake hand with other hand, allows to slide brake hand, brake hand never leaves the rope. Its amazing how poorly some really good climbers belay.

[Wakaranai]

Just watched the video. Yes the BUS, I thought it was the Canuck method, works the best in my opinion, climber is always on lock down.

[Pilchuck71]

I've seen this cluster fuck method, er excuse me BUS method, used in the gym. Never knew what is was called, but it looks way more complicated than it needs to be.

Agreed. I guess what I've been using all these years is the SSS. Never knew that's what it was called, if that's what I'm even doing. In 25+ years of climbing, I've never dropped anyone or had anyone deck while I was belaying them, so I guess I must be doing something right...

 

And before anyone says, "What about Dane?", that one doesn't count, cuz he hadn't placed any pro before he pitched off.

 

:tup:

[rob]

Jesus you guys sure take toprope belaying seriously. Extra slack? Dynamic belay? Frozen hands and gloves?

[JosephH]

That's a completely retarded way to belay. Must have been developed as a desperate response to the hordes dropping each other in gyms.

 

Grigris are a good belaying idea for [untrustworthy] beginners when what you're teaching is holding hanging climbers as opposed to belaying, unfortunately it's a lousy device for teaching beginners how to lower people.

[bstach]

Sounds like a Blues Bothers Song...

 

"Slip, slap and sliiiide..I don't care if I die"

[bstach]

Oh ya...here it is

[video:youtube]

Edited February 11, 2010 by bstach

[ConorB]

sss works great for hip belay and munter belay... which is where it was developed. think about it.... in hip belay most braking is cross body, and in munter most braking is straight up.

 

not so much with tube devices

[Drederek]

There are lots of methods that work once you've learned them, even a figure eight can catch a whipper. I think the rigid attitude about belaying at the gym has more to do with the experience of the employees than the climbers - they've been told that "x" way is the shit and management doesn't trust them to be able to evaluate other methods.

[ConorB]

There are lots of methods that work once you've learned them, even a figure eight can catch a whipper. I think the rigid attitude about belaying at the gym has more to do with the experience of the employees than the climbers - they've been told that "x" way is the shit and management doesn't trust them to be able to evaluate other methods.

 

completely agree. its that whole dummed down for the masses thing that comes with the "i have my gym belay cert" thing and now that climbing appeals to the yoga/soccer scene.

 

[JosephH]

sss works great for hip belay and munter belay... which is where it was developed. think about it.... in hip belay most braking is cross body, and in munter most braking is straight up.

 

not so much with tube devices

Intelligent hip belaying is never 'cross body' and a belaying with munter is so lousy and hard on ropes I'd never consider it except in an emergency scenario.

 

There are a few ways to employ both hands to belay such that one is never off the brake side of the device, the one in that video is patently ridiculous. I'm not getting near a rock with anyone doing that. Again, that's about as lowest common denominator excuse for belaying as I can imagine - kind of a sad indicator of a general 'lowering of the bar' in climbing.

[ConorB]

sss works great for hip belay and munter belay... which is where it was developed. think about it.... in hip belay most braking is cross body, and in munter most braking is straight up.

 

not so much with tube devices

Intelligent hip belaying is never 'cross body' and a belaying with munter is so lousy and hard on ropes I'd never consider it except in an emergency scenario.

 

There are a few ways to employ both hands to belay such that one is never off the brake side of the device, the one in that video is patently ridiculous. I'm not getting near a rock with anyone doing that. Again, that's about as lowest common denominator excuse for belaying as I can imagine - kind of a sad indicator of a general 'lowering of the bar' in climbing.

 

 

hahah ok. archaic viewpoints a plenty with you eh?

Edited February 11, 2010 by ConorB

[eldiente]

 

The GriGri is for people who do nothing but single-pitch cragging and don't know how to tie off a climber and initiate a rescue scenario. People learning how to belay on a GriGri just leads to laziness and bad habits.

 

Yes, that's why most Wall climbers, free and aid, cary nothing but GriGris these days. Maybe you should post to ST and let Chris know that his recommendation for using a GriGri for wall climbing is wrong?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=875439

 

You can also hunt around ST and find the gear beta for when Chris and Tommy linked the Nose and Freerider together in a day, the only belay device listed is a GriGri.

 

I find a lot of use for the GriGri,even while alpine climbing. Good tool for simul climbing, I can adjust the length of the rope on the fly and still climb. I can take my hand off the rope to eat food while lead belaying (not going to do that with an ATC) handy for self belaying as a second, short fixing, hauling etc etc. Yep it is heavy, but there is a reason all the speedy climbers carry only this device and skimp on the rest.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2010 by eldiente

[JoeR]

That's a completely retarded way to belay.

 

What exactly is it that makes the BUS method retarded Joseph besides your unfamiliarity with it?

[JosephH]

What exactly is it that makes the BUS method retarded Joseph besides your unfamiliarity with it?

Not sure this isn't one of those 'if you have to ask' sort of deals and I'm really not trying to be mean here. But since you did, it's a real 'binary' system for beginners and particularly for when the climber is going to be doing a lot of unexpected falling and hanging. Attempt to move fast on multipitch routes with someone doing that the problems will become self-evident and there are also times (albiet not a lot of folks encounter them) when belaying gets fairly technical requiring all manner of subtlety where that kind of 'locked off' belaying is worthless. Last, try translating that to doubles and you'll have a real 'binary' system. Again, not something I'd want to ever see a partner doing.

 

But as Dave noted, I'm an archaic curmudgeon...

[Mtguide]

sss works great for hip belay and munter belay... which is where it was developed. think about it.... in hip belay most braking is cross body, and in munter most braking is straight up.

 

not so much with tube devices

Intelligent hip belaying is never 'cross body' and a belaying with munter is so lousy and hard on ropes I'd never consider it except in an emergency scenario.

 

There are a few ways to employ both hands to belay such that one is never off the brake side of the device, the one in that video is patently ridiculous. I'm not getting near a rock with anyone doing that. Again, that's about as lowest common denominator excuse for belaying as I can imagine - kind of a sad indicator of a general 'lowering of the bar' in climbing.

 

 

How is hip belay NOT cross-body? If, say, in doing an actual hip belay, I have the rope around my hips, rope in left hand going to the leader, the rope in my right hand is coming from around my back. If the leader falls, I move my right hand (with the rope in it) ACROSS MY BODY, in front of me, from right to left, to lock off the belay and catch the climber. Done it thousands of times.

 

Using the same SSS method with an ATC, it's true, the motion is NOT cross body. I'll usually orient the rope the same way, with the rope going to the leader in my left hand (above the ATC) and the rope coming out of the ATC, in my right. If the climber falls, I move the right hand hand down and back to lock off the rope in the ATC, which usually means I'm moving right hand to my right, as I face the wall and climber. And, I'll usually orient the rope, and hands, the same way for rappelling. Simplicity, uniformity, always doing the same thing, less chance for mistakes.

 

Since I learned years ago using the hip belay, it seemed a simple matter to adapt the SSS technique of handling the rope to the various devices as they began to come out in the late 60's/ early 70's,( Sticht plate, fig.8, tubes, etc.) In every case the SSS works just fine. I find it's main advantage to be speed and simplicity in taking in or paying out the rope, and instant ability to catch a fall. We were taught that the belay hand must NEVER leave or lose contact with the rope, and so the old hip belay technique,(with the ATC in place of the hips) does this beautifully. This BUS method looks to me like a good way to get fucked up in a big hurry. I've seen people doing it for years, I just thought they'd never learned to belay properly; never realized that it was a formalized technique. Amazing. Definitely something I don't want done on a real climb.

 

 

 

 

[Off_White]

Yeah, I'd say I generally fall under Mtguide's approach and history. Looks to me like the BUS thing works, though perhaps best for yo-yo top roping, you know, like in the gym. Point is there's a lot of ways to go about it, and knowing more than one thing is best. Everyone ought to know how to hip belay, nothing can move the rope faster on easy ground. Gri-gri's have their place too, but I find 'em awkward for belaying a leader.

[JosephH]

[How is hip belay NOT cross-body? If, say, in doing an actual hip belay, I have the rope around my hips, rope in left hand going to the leader, the rope in my right hand is coming from around my back. If the leader falls, I move my right hand (with the rope in it) ACROSS MY BODY, in front of me, from right to left, to lock off the belay and catch the climber. Done it thousands of times.

I also learned belaying with hip belaying. In fact, it was years before we'd trust stitch plates or devices of any type. Did lots of hard multi-pitch that way and caught endless falls, plenty of them long ones. The difference is we used a single, non-locking carabiner on the harness for the rope coming from the climber. Locking off - with or without a carabiner is best done by taking the rope not across the body, but diving it between your legs, essentially over / around the brake-side upper thigh with the hand rolled down and out (palm down) so the rope goes across the butt of the palm forming another lock. It's also important that the rope be on the hips and not around the waist. Done this way, hip belays are utterly reliable for any level of climbing, even over vertical, overhanging terrain, and roofs. In this more 'technical' use of hip belaying in hard multipitch climbing, though, stancing also became incredibly important, if not a craft in it's own right.

[tvashtarkatena]

Everyone should also be able to gin up a munter and/or biner biner belay in case they forget or drop their belay device. Not that that's ever happened to me....

[JosephH]

Forgot my harness and ATC last fall and still mananaged to do Blownout out at Beacon and rap it with just the end of the rope and a couple of biners. Still completely doable even in the face of all our pretty baubles and contraptions. Can't say that wiregate biner brakes make for much fun rapping, however.

[JoeR]

Point is there's a lot of ways to go about it, and knowing more than one thing is best. Everyone ought to know how to hip belay, nothing can move the rope faster on easy ground. Gri-gri's have their place too, but I find 'em awkward for belaying a leader.

I agree completely with this, but your assertion that the BUS method only has a place in the gym or in top-roping has not been my experience.

 

We were taught that the belay hand must NEVER leave or lose contact with the rope, and so the old hip belay technique,(with the ATC in place of the hips) does this beautifully. This BUS method looks to me like a good way to get fucked up in a big hurry. I've seen people doing it for years, I just thought they'd never learned to belay properly; never realized that it was a formalized technique. Amazing. Definitely something I don't want done on a real climb.

A few points:

1: The belay hand does not ever leave the rope, you seem unfamiliar with this technique.

2: If the Bus method was a good way to get fucked up in a big hurry, it would not be taught by so many gyms and other climbing businesses looking to manage their risk.

3: Your automatic assumption that the method that so many other people were using was wrong just because it is different than the one you were taught is telling.

 

Forgot my harness and ATC last fall and still mananaged to do Blownout out at Beacon and rap it with just the end of the rope and a couple of biners. Still completely doable even in the face of all our pretty baubles and contraptions.

Wiregates are pretty contraptions... pinch your nuts with the Dulfersitz next time for maximum archaic goodness.

 

All in all, each belay method does the job, and a knowledge of each one comes with time and a willingness to accept a world where different people use different methods to achieve a goal. To call something retarded and dangerous just because it isn't the method you were taught is disingenuous at best. That is unless you want climbing to be like an fundamentalist religion.

[rob]

I don't care what method they use as long as somebody is behind them holding onto a gear loop. Top-rope falls have so much force, you know!!!! THIS ISN'T A GAME!!!! THIS IS SERIOUS SHIT!!!

[billcoe]

BUS belay:

 

I hadn't seen this video you linked. I belay like that when toproping and gym climbing. With a Gri gri too. The climber is essentially always locked off, and you can talk to the guy next to you, scratch yer nutz and stuff without total focus and be 100% safe. Don't know what is meant by SSS, probably missed that too. There, I'm a noob and you will be locked off with my bus when you need it. BUS huh? BTW, @ 2weeks ago I was giving a hip belay. Wonder what the abbreviation for that is? HB? (Hugh Banner?)

 

Hey, is that whole wheat Cheerios or the regular kind?