snowman Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 I've been climbing 5th class rock for 3 yrs. I have not came upon a situation where I've had to use a bowline knot. Just wondering if there is times when the bowline is used as the preferred knot? Also, has anyone had a clove hitch fail in a anchor system? Quote
Sparky Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 #1.No.#2. Nope, never. Easy to adjust, and will fail just before the #2 camelot at the belay station. Quote
Honkeydong Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 If you haven't seen this, check it out.knot strengths and failure under load Quote
wayne Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 Uses for Bowline: if the rope is around something and you cant tie the first half of say a figure 8(the knot of choice).If you need a knot to come undone easy if it is to be loaded, It is an easy knot to tie with one hand. In an emergency it is super quick to tie. I will add that it is the only legal knot in the union construction trade. I have seen it used extensively with european climbers and alpine climbers in its double form. I have seen it fail after loosening to have tragic consequenses. If it is to be used as a harness tie in,double it, using the clove hitch to start instead of a double bight. It is a system I experimented with and is the only form of bowline I trust. As always any tie in knot should be backed up with a half grapevine and your partner should inspect it. Its your ass. [ 03-09-2002: Message edited by: wayne1112 ] Quote
jon Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 I would not tie in with a normal bowline, I never have, and now have a really good reason not to. I do tie in with a modified bowline; two rabbit holes partly revowen back towards the other end with a safety know (similar to what was in a Climbing tech article a few months ago). I like this knot because it is easy to get out of, I have an affinity for getting figure-8's to tight to get out of (loose some weight you say!). Two problems with this knot; most people don't climb with it and don't know what it should look like, and since it is more complex it is easier to screw up. With this in mind and applying Ockham's Razor I'm considering going back to the figure-8. Quote
Bug Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 Bowline on a coil. Wrap the rope around your waist 3 or 4 times. Take the climbing end, make a loop in the front, put the loop up under all 3 or 4 strands, bring a bite of the climbing end through the loop when it sticks out the top of the 3 or 4 strands, bring the loose end through the bite and double it back. Pull the climbing end taught which pulls the bite of the loose end through the loop and cinches down on the whole coil around your waist. Bring the remaining loose end back down under the 3 or 4 coils and up through the loop beside the climbing end. Tie it aff with a fisherman's knot. You now have a comfortable waist harness for cutting off your breathing. If you fall and/or must hang, flip upside down, put a leg on each side of the rope so it goes up past your butt, slip a single runner over both legs and slide it up to your crotch. Flip right side up and the runner pulls the climbing rope down between legs alowing the leg loops to take most of the weight. That was my father's only harness. It works when you have nothing else. Quote
Smoker Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by snowman: I've been climbing 5th class rock for 3 yrs. I have not came upon a situation where I've had to use a bowline knot. Just wondering if there is times when the bowline is used as the preferred knot? Also, has anyone had a clove hitch fail in a anchor system? The bowline has been changed out for the rewoven eight in standard climbing circles these daze. The knot strength of a bowline is less than a rewoven eight. I've not "needed" a bowline rock climbing either. So your not alone. That being said I use a modified bowline cragging. Same knot that Jon mentioned. It is an easily untied knot after loading. It is not so much how heavy you are that cinches up a knot, but how badly you load/fall upon it. Sounds like Jon and I might have the same problem-Falling! Before climbing on any knot or system it is paramount that you understand the pro/cons and make an informed descision. Your partners might not like the modified bowline simply because they are not familiar with the knot and can not double check it. Often times thats reason enough to use a rewoven 8. When I am multi-pitch'en it I tie in with the rewoven 8. Since there is no reason to untie, the knots stronger and the knot tends to require less attention than a bowline. When/if you ever do any climbing on a shortened rope the bowline comes in handy. It is the knot of choice when I climb on a shortened rope. Always clip the tail of a bowline on a bight off to prevent it from failing. Never heard of a clove hitch failing. Climb smartSmoker Quote
mattp Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 The bowline on a coil works well, in a pinch -- like when some bonehead forgets their harness. I also use the regular bowline sometimes and I have never heard of it failing when used in a situation where it is not subjected to a lot of flopping around. I sometimes use it, tied off with half a grapevine, when I'm using a piece of rope as a long runner for a top-rope anchor or when I am fixing a line. As smoker noted - consider the pros and cons, and use it where you place a high priority on being able to untie the knot after it has been loaded. If you want a fail-proof knot, especially where the rope will flop around (as in a tie-in knot), use the follow-through figure eight. I believe the clove hitch has similar limitations. It is easy to tie, can be tied with one hand, and the length can be adjusted without completely undoing the knot. But when it is used at a belay while there is a lot of activity, such as when you are hauling or when there are three climbers on the team, I have often seen it to deform so as to end up looking like something less than a knot. I generally prefer the water knot tied on a bight of rope. Quote
AlpineK Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 I do knot testing on a regular basis. If I don't want to send a small to medium chunk of wood through someone roof. I'll use a bowline, but if it's a huge log or tree top I like the clove hitch a lot better. Quote
Dru Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 When you coil up the rope over your shoulder for a shortroped section on a long climb, you can throw a bowline on a coil on that to keep it tied together and compact instead of using a Kiwi hitch or a butterfly knot. Quote
wayne Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 Is it Bowline on a coil or colon on a boil? [ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: wayne1112 ] Quote
Bug Posted March 11, 2002 Posted March 11, 2002 OK. Since you drift. "You are but a polyp on the asshole of the universe". Not really. I just like that one. Quote
freeclimb9 Posted March 11, 2002 Posted March 11, 2002 I've used a bowline to secure a rope around large immovable objects (like trees and rock horns) for belay anchors. It's also a handy knot --in its modified version with the double "holes"-- for sport-climbing since it is easier to untie oafter enduring a fall. I've also used the bowline on a bight for tieing into the rope when top-roping, or going superlight on mountaineering-type routes. It is a useful know to know. Quote
pope Posted March 11, 2002 Posted March 11, 2002 Makes a very adjustable knot for your chalk-bag strap. If your strap is 1-inch webbing, and if you employ the bowline knot, you may also thread around this strap as you tie into your harness with the rope, thereby adding redundancy to the buckle system used on virtually all harnesses. If your chalk bag strap is secured with a fast-tex buckle, don't bother threading the rope around your chalk-bag strap when you tie in. Quote
PDXClimber Posted March 11, 2002 Posted March 11, 2002 bowline knot is commonly used by sailors when rigging sails and attaching downhaul to main sheet. Quote
imorris Posted March 11, 2002 Posted March 11, 2002 We use double bowlines w/really long (10ft) tails to attach our litter to the haul and belay lines in our raising and lowering system. The tails are used as tie-ins w/ 8's for the patient and litter attendant (the litter spider includes a tie-in as well, so the bowline tail is occasionally not used). The double-bowline was chosen due to it's ease of untying after a rescue load. It does require practice, but is not terribly difficult to tie or observe as incorrectly tied if dressed reasonably. Tied incorrectly, and it loses a considerable amount of strength. That said, I still use a fig. 8 on bight for my tie-in since it's so fast and obvious. I might get flamed for this, but I rarely tie in through the harness, but clip in for the flexibility of escape from systems, etc. -Iain Quote
Alex Posted March 11, 2002 Posted March 11, 2002 "bowline knot is commonly used by sailors when rigging sails" yes "and attaching downhaul to main sheet" The downhaul is used to hold the spinnaker pole in place while the main sheet controls the boom? These things are completely unrelated, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Quote
Marcus_Engley Posted March 20, 2002 Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Alex: "bowline knot is commonly used by sailors when rigging sails"yes "and attaching downhaul to main sheet" The downhaul is used to hold the spinnaker pole in place while the main sheet controls the boom? These things are completely unrelated, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Downhaul's used to tension the luff by cranking the boom down at the gooseneck. Certainly not related to the main sheet though... But this is a climbing website. Quote
Marcus_Engley Posted March 20, 2002 Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Alex: The luff of the main? Is tensioned by the cunningham at the gooseneck, but doesnt have anything to do with the gooseneck per se. Cranking the boom down is, of course, physically impossible since the gooseneck is fixed to your mast. You can tension the boom, though with the boom vang? The downhaul on the boats I've sailed actually cranks the boom down, at the gooseneck, tensioning the luff. The gooseneck travels up or down in the slot that the sail feeds into. This is on smaller boats up to 15' to 18' or so. I'm not surprised that the gooseneck is immobile on larger boats. The boom vang runs from mast foot out to a point on the boom, somewhere away from the gooseneck (same as on the boats you sail, I imagine - yes?). quote: Originally posted by Alex: But I think I understand the confusion, if you do not sail with a spinnaker or masthead rig, and thats my only experience except for cats and tris with an asym. If you call the cunningham a downhaul, thats cool, but on a masthead rig with a spinnaker pole that does end-to-end gybes, the downhaul holds the spinnaker pole steady from below, while the topping lift holds it steady from above. Ahhh, no I've never sailed a spinnaker rig, much as I've wanted to. The cunningham, as I understand it, actually tightens the luff via a grommet and a line between it and the tack-- obviously doing the same thing as the downhaul for a fixed gooseneck boom... Learn something new every day! Thanks... m Quote
Marcus_Engley Posted March 20, 2002 Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by forrest_m: ahoy mateys, belay that sailin' talk, this is a climbing website. Aye aye... consider it belayed, skipper... Quote
Alex Posted March 20, 2002 Posted March 20, 2002 "The downhaul on the boats I've sailed actually cranks the boom down, at the gooseneck, tensioning the luff. The gooseneck travels up or down in the slot that the sail feeds into. This is on smaller boats up to 15' to 18' or so. I'm not surprised that the gooseneck is immobile on larger boats." Wow a moveable gooseneck? My apologies, yes learn something new every day. Trippy. I guess I can totally envision that on smaller boats where the loads arent so large. Seems that that would require the main to have a foot shelf though, and I am also used to a free footed main. What kind of boat? Yes sorry I am used to Hobie cats, ULDB-types (SC27, Olson 30, Farr 40s). Quote
Marcus_Engley Posted March 20, 2002 Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Alex: Wow a moveable gooseneck? My apologies, yes learn something new every day. Trippy. I guess I can totally envision that on smaller boats where the loads arent so large. Seems that that would require the main to have a foot shelf though, and I am also used to a free footed main. What kind of boat? No apologies. Different setup, for sure... The boat I was thinking of was a 17' marconi rigged Catboat. One big fat sail, and very beamy, but nowhere near the loads of a Hobie. I think the little FJ's and the 420s we had in college had a similar setup, but that may be wrong. The Cat has a keel-stepped (hull-stepped, really, since it's a centerboard boat) mast, but all the gooseneck tensioning was between an attachment point on the 'neck and a cleat on the mast itself. Mmmm, Hobie's always look like so much fun... I've sailed lots of Lazers, and they're plenty feisty, but nothing like a catamaran... m Quote
Dru Posted March 20, 2002 Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Marcus Engley: Aye aye... consider it belayed, skipper... I think Alex wants to show you his little buddy, Gilligan. Quote
rayborbon Posted March 20, 2002 Posted March 20, 2002 Here's Sisu Suomi on the N RIDGE OF STUART I am the one with the red helmet! [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: rayborbon ] Quote
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