5.15

[JosephH]

I don't "work" climbs specifically because I do groundup, onsight, trad FAs (which means no hanging) and I'm frankly not emotionally capable of switching modes from one to the other on a highly technical and dangerous line.

That is essentially meaningless babble UNLESS you walk away from any project you ever fall from, never to attempt it again.

Not at all, it simply means you don't dog a line - either you're capable of working out the line and moves while climbing or your aren't - you either have to weight the rope to get up the route or you don't.

[eldiente]

The practical benefits of developing your 'on the fly' skills come into play trad climbing when you are runout with no, or only highly technical or marginal, placements and no place to hang to 'work' the line or the moves - particularly during onsight trad FAs. You can definitely compensate for that to some degree with superb physical condition and endurance, but generally only when climbing significantly under your limit. The emotional aspects of trying to figure out a line or moves or technical placements while runout tends to get quite sharp as you approach your limit.

 

Again I'm going to have to say, why do we keep associating trad with bold and/or run-out climbing? Sure, there are gear protected trad climbs that are run-out, scary whatever, but your typical crack climb is not bold or run-out. Get sketched out on lead? Place another piece of gear and continue you on. I'd say the average trad lead is less committing to on-sight than your average bolted route. I can't stop half-way through a hard section and place another bolt.

 

As for working out routes on the rope.. Yeah maybe on TR this is true but you ever been on upper Heinous? The rope only helps stop your 40 foot fall and doesn't offer any help in "working" the moves.

 

 

[j_b]

We all climb for the way it makes us feel, but Pope and Raindawg's ethics seem way too rigid to be enjoyable. For example, I never bother pulling the rope down to be able to claim the red point because I am much more concerned with not making a big deal out of ratings/difficulty/style of a climb. Focusing on style places too much emphasis on what I call the numbers game and eventually takes pleasure out of climbing, for me at least. I much prefer getting up something onsight because it is what gives me most pleasure but if I don't, see if I care.

[JosephH]

...but your typical crack climb is not bold or run-out. Get sketched out on lead? Place another piece of gear and continue you on.

I agree, but then I've never thought all that much of splitter and predominantly crack climbing - pretty much all 'muscle' and no 'puzzle'.

[G-spotter]

I don't "work" climbs specifically because I do groundup, onsight, trad FAs (which means no hanging) and I'm frankly not emotionally capable of switching modes from one to the other on a highly technical and dangerous line.

That is essentially meaningless babble UNLESS you walk away from any project you ever fall from, never to attempt it again.

Not at all, it simply means you don't dog a line - either you're capable of working out the line and moves while climbing or your aren't - you either have to weight the rope to get up the route or you don't.

 

so what part of onsight, ground up trad FA do you claim after 10 or 20 falls?

[JosephH]

so what part of onsight, ground up trad FA do you claim after 10 or 20 falls?

The onsight part, but then I walk away before I take that many falls to do a move.

[Kimmo]

 

How many times on a route does it become siege climbing?

 

they have told me they will not answer you until you have spilled the beans about what the sharma video taught you.

[rocky_joe]

is climbing with a boner good style?

[Pete_H]

Again I'm going to have to say, why do we keep associating trad with bold and/or run-out climbing? Sure, there are gear protected trad climbs that are run-out, scary whatever, but your typical crack climb is not bold or run-out. Get sketched out on lead? Place another piece of gear and continue you on. I'd say the average trad lead is less committing to on-sight than your average bolted route. I can't stop half-way through a hard section and place another bolt.

 

I disagree. With sport climbing you can just gun it in-between bolts and if you get really pumped its not hard to clip a bolt and keep going or clip it and fall. If you get wicked pumped when climbing on gear its way harder to stop and fiddle in a good piece of gear.

 

That said, if talking about climbing clean splitter cracks at the crag, you have a point. But that's not always the case.

[JosephH]

I'd say the average trad lead is less committing to on-sight than your average bolted route. I can't stop half-way through a hard section and place another bolt.

I'd disagree with the first statement other than pure crack climbs, but even there by and large you're talking about climbing trad climbs under your ['sport'] limit. The fact that the overwhelming majority of climbers here and on every other climbing forum talk about the delta between their 'sport' and 'trad' rating pretty much confirms the contrary.

[Choada_Boy]

[JosephH]

That lack of horsepower is obviously why you don't climb trad at the same level you sport climb.

[Choada_Boy]

I don't climb anymore out of fear of being booed by spectators.

[RuMR]

logic doesn't apply here...

 

You must remember that they hiked uphill both directions in driving blizzard snows while suffering unbelievably from the scorching 120 degree blazing sun and carrying lead bricks to anchor to so they could ascend their 5.8c/d moss covered, slug infested death defying ankle shattering heroic endeavor of a route. Each time they lowered desperately from the second move (and then the third, then the fourth, and so on...) of the route so as to stay pure to their ideals. This was due to the fact that they didn't want to suffer the "boos" from the massive audiences that also hiked uphill both directions in driving blizzard snows while suffering unbelievably from the scorching 120 degree blazing sun...

 

[G-spotter]

That lack of horsepower is obviously why you don't climb trad at the same level you sport climb.

 

that lack of determination is why you don't climb harder, you don't have the willpower to keep trying something even after repeated falls. you are lazy and need to develop some discipline.

[RuMR]

[Choada_Boy]

Homer: Hey, how come you never play your guitar any more?

 

Bart: I'll tell ya the truth, Dad. I wasn't good at it right away, so I quit. I hope you're not mad.

 

Homer: [sweetly] Son, come here! Heh heh heh...[bart sits on Homer's knee] Of course I'm not mad. If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing! You just stick that guitar in the closet next to your short-wave radio, your karate outfit and your unicycle, and we'll go inside and watch TV.

 

[JosephH]

Bart: I'll tell ya the truth, Dad. I wasn't good at it right away, so I quit. I hope you're not mad.

No doubt there are all sort of people who, not really having any natural talent or gift for it, tough it out and become ok climbers anyway. My Dad is a retired 747 pilot, he used to say the same thing about pilots, though he would always add you really don't want them flying the plane you're on.

[eldiente]

I'd disagree with the first statement other than pure crack climbs, but even there by and large you're talking about climbing trad climbs under your ['sport'] limit. The fact that the overwhelming majority of climbers here and on every other climbing forum talk about the delta between their 'sport' and 'trad' rating pretty much confirms the contrary.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of the mental difficulties, not the physical ones. The point I was making was that placing gear does not automatically make a route "bold" and conversely clipping a bolt does not make route "trivial." Give EBGBs a J-tree a try and try to tell me that clipping bolts makes a route safe, or Rock Warrior in Red Rocks for instance. I'd have a better chance of success on a trad climb two numbers grades higher than these routes just knowing I can plug gear whenever I want.

[Pete_H]

I'd talk shit about leading EBGB's except for the fact I had to pull on the first bolt to get off the deck.

[Kimmo]

No doubt there are all sort of people who, not really having any natural talent or gift for it, tough it out and become ok climbers anyway. My Dad is a retired 747 pilot, he used to say the same thing about pilots, though he would always add you really don't want them flying the plane you're on.

 

if your dad was saying that about peeps flying 747s, then i guess it goes hand in hand with your elitism regarding your 5.12 "test-pieces".

 

like father like son.

[Kimmo]

No doubt there are all sort of people who, not really having any natural talent or gift for it, tough it out and become ok climbers anyway. My Dad is a retired 747 pilot, he used to say the same thing about pilots, though he would always add you really don't want them flying the plane you're on.

 

i personally enjoy watching people who might struggle a bit at first with something-often because of a lack of confidence-come to learn about perseverance and confidence while they develop proficiency and skill at what it is they are doing.

it's especially rewarding when they surpass the arrogant ones who think they are somehow better and more "special" than those who they deem not to be "naturals".

 

i guess it's your arrogance (insecurity) that has kept you in the same boat as dwayner all these years?

[tvashtarkatena]

Flying a 747 is easy. I flew one at the Boeing Field simulator right under the Golden Gate Bridge. Then I flew it off the landscape and under a mountain. Then the screen went dead, and the system engineer got kind of mad.

[Kimmo]

that was my point. bragging about flying a 747 is like bragging about driving a taxi. although it's actually much harder to fly a taxi under a mountain.

[G-spotter]

flying a 747 is so easy a saudi with a box cutter can do it...