5.15

[tvashtarkatena]

I would never solo anything I've climbed before. It's beneath me.

Edited January 11, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[RuMR]

It's so much easier to simply accept one's mediocrity than to invent a bag of artificial handicaps, self labeled as 'style' or 'ethics', to provide excuses for same.

 

It's also more graceful to accept that whatever you accomplished when younger will likely be improved upon by those who follow.

 

In this thread we see a couple of local yocals who weren't even well known during their peak in the small pond that is Washington judge the world's top climbers by nothing more than a bag of excuses for their own former mediocrity and current state of embarrassingly graceless aging. They are the unquestioned authorities on the subject in a rarefied association with a total membership of 2.

 

I've seen 14 year olds do a better job of poser-powered shit-talking.

 

...damn...i will now just shut up and sit down and let Trash deal with the poop and dwanus dog and pony show....careful though, Trash, you might get challenged with a watermelon...

[RuMR]

You know, Pope did solo Brass Balls. That's a cool thing to do.

 

The question I have is how may times did he rehearse the climb prior to his solo? I'm sure there was no hang dogging done, but any climbs prior to the solo were rehearsal climbs.

 

Why are Popes rehearsals different from the ones he complains about?

They aren't...

[Raindawg]

It's so much easier to simply accept one's mediocrity than to invent a bag of artificial handicaps, self labeled as 'style' or 'ethics', to provide excuses for same.

 

It's also more graceful to accept that whatever you accomplished when younger will likely be improved upon by those who follow.

 

In this thread we see a couple of local yocals who weren't even well known during their peak in the small pond that is Washington judge the world's top climbers by nothing more than a bag of excuses for their own former mediocrity and current state of embarrassingly graceless aging. They are the unquestioned authorities on the subject in a rarefied association with a total membership of 2.

 

I've seen 14 year olds do a better job of poser-powered shit-talking.

 

 

No style, no ethics...now that's mediocrity!

Throw in a bunch of ad hoc assumptions and pop-psychology along with a load of crass personal insults and you've shared a whole lot of nothing with us.

But I bet you feel better about yourself now, eh?(- that's my own version of pop-psychology to explain your violent reaction to other's perspectives.)

[RuMR]

...wanna collect on that bet, poser?

[Pete_H]

Innocuous personal insults are out but hijacking every thread having to do with sport climbing is OK? Interesting logic.

[StevenSeagal]

 

 

No style, no ethics...now that's mediocrity!

 

that's exactly what "traditional" martial artists claimed about Bruce Lee's "no-form, no-style", even as no style kicked both their individual and collective asses. Your narrow minded vision and infantile ego define mediocrity while masquerading as enlightenment.

 

"The one who says he knows does not know" - J. Krishnamurti.

 

Throw in a bunch of ad hoc assumptions and pop-psychology along with a load of crass personal insults and you've shared a whole lot of nothing with us.

But I bet you feel better about yourself now, eh?(- that's my own version of pop-psychology to explain your violent reaction to other's perspectives.)

 

 

BOOOOOOOOOOO...hoo!

[hafilax]

I view rehearsed climbing much like gymnastics or kata in martial arts.

 

Is that a good parallel?

Rehearsed climbing is to onsight climbing as kata is to martial arts.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I view rehearsed climbing much like gymnastics or kata in martial arts.

 

Is that a good parallel?

Rehearsed climbing is to onsight climbing as kata is to martial arts.

 

how many times does a concert pianist rehearse a piece, focusing on certain movements, and even portions of a piece before actually performing it?

 

 

[StevenSeagal]

I view rehearsed climbing much like gymnastics or kata in martial arts.

 

Is that a good parallel?

Rehearsed climbing is to onsight climbing as kata is to martial arts.

 

how many times does a concert pianist rehearse a piece, focusing on certain movements, and even portions of a piece before actually performing it?

 

 

hopefully, when practicing, he or she will be booed loud and often enough by bystanders to discourage them from playing that piece "until they're good enough", or at least forcing them to start from the beginning each time they make a wrong note!

[hafilax]

I'm pretty sure that Glen Gould did a few onsight performances.

[matt_warfield]

I view rehearsed climbing much like gymnastics or kata in martial arts.

 

Is that a good parallel?

Rehearsed climbing is to onsight climbing as kata is to martial arts.

 

how many times does a concert pianist rehearse a piece, focusing on certain movements, and even portions of a piece before actually performing it?

 

 

Or football players, baseball players, basketball players, soccer players, etc. Rehearsal in climbing is called practice in other sports. And rearding martial arts, consider trying to break your first board in front of the sensei without ever trying it outside the dojo first.

[RuMR]

I view rehearsed climbing much like gymnastics or kata in martial arts.

 

Is that a good parallel?

Rehearsed climbing is to onsight climbing as kata is to martial arts.

 

how many times does a concert pianist rehearse a piece, focusing on certain movements, and even portions of a piece before actually performing it?

 

Or football players, baseball players, basketball players, soccer players, etc. Rehearsal in climbing is called practice in other sports. And rearding martial arts, consider trying to break your first board in front of the sensei without ever trying it outside the dojo first.

logic doesn't apply here...

 

You must remember that they hiked uphill both directions in driving blizzard snows while suffering unbelievably from the scorching 120 degree blazing sun and carrying lead bricks to anchor to so they could ascend their 5.8c/d moss covered, slug infested death defying ankle shattering heroic endeavor of a route. Each time they lowered desperately from the second move (and then the third, then the fourth, and so on...) of the route so as to stay pure to their ideals. This was due to the fact that they didn't want to suffer the "boos" from the massive audiences that also hiked uphill both directions in driving blizzard snows while suffering unbelievably from the scorching 120 degree blazing sun...

 

 

[rocky_joe]

wait a second...so is sport climbing like masturbating?

Edited January 11, 2010 by rocky_joe

[RuMR]

yep...but pope's style of bashing sportclimbing is like fudgepacking...

[rocky_joe]

now i understand. Pope is one of those fudge-packing brigittine monks.

 

http://www.brigittine.org/monks/confec0721.html

 

sport climbing > fudgepacking

Edited January 11, 2010 by rocky_joe

[JosephH]

For me, bolts and dogging are two seperate issues with bolting being about access and dogging being about FA skills.

 

Hanging is about problem solving, it's essentially a form of aerial bouldering where the rope serves to incrementally and repeatedly bring the ground up under you again and again so you can 'work' the moves - you're bouldering each crux section of the climb before moving on while occasionally starting the stack of moves from the bottom.

 

Incrementally 'working' a climb is the opposite of what you experience in a voluntarily enforced (ethic) or involuntarily enforced (deep water solo / steep TR) situation were there are only two options - either figure out the moves while climbing or fall. And that [dynamic] puzzle aspect of climbing - figuring out both the route and the moves 'on the fly' - which is what I personally value in climbing.

 

The practical benefits of developing your 'on the fly' skills come into play trad climbing when you are runout with no, or only highly technical or marginal, placements and no place to hang to 'work' the line or the moves - particularly during onsight trad FAs. You can definitely compensate for that to some degree with superb physical condition and endurance, but generally only when climbing significantly under your limit. The emotional aspects of trying to figure out a line or moves or technical placements while runout tends to get quite sharp as you approach your limit.

 

I don't "work" climbs specifically because I do groundup, onsight, trad FAs (which means no hanging) and I'm frankly not emotionally capable of switching modes from one to the other on a highly technical and dangerous line. I personally need the consistent 'ethic' in order to do trad FAs in the style that makes them worth doing for me. There is also the issue of what a 'trad FA' even means these days. A lot of 'trad' FAs these days are actually put up with sport / siege tactics. I don't consider them trad FAs, but rather 'sprad FAs' or redpoints-on-gear. Forgive me for clinging to old notion a trad FA still means either FA - free or with a couple of points of aid - or an FFA with no aid - but neither with any hanging and 'working' the line. In the end, the essence of 'trad climbing' was about the absence of hanging, not the absence of bolts - you're either climbing, falling, or being lowered, but never dogging the line.

 

As for bolts, I have no problem saying I'm not elitist - I'm just completely selfish and utterly misanthropic. We started climbing in part to escape the suburban hordes, and in the pre-gyms era, trad climbing was a ruthless barrier-to-entry that filtered out folks who were just into risk-free entertainment and socializing. We knew all along exactly what risk-free, climbing for entertainment would mean - a "build it and they will come" throwing open of the gates. The whole notion of that is succinctly summed up by the fact that only in today's world could two words representing the best of what we do be twisted and perverted into a reverse oxymoron - 'adventure climbing'.

[rocky_joe]

For me, bolts and dogging are two seperate issues with bolting being about access and dogging being about FA skills.

 

Hanging is about problem solving, it's essentially a form of aerial bouldering where the rope serves to incrementally and repeatedly bring the ground up under you again and again so you can 'work' the moves - you're bouldering each crux section of the climb before moving on while occasionally starting the stack of moves from the bottom.

 

Incrementally 'working' a climb is the opposite of what you experience in a voluntarily enforced (ethic) or involuntarily enforced (deep water solo / steep TR) situation were there are only two options - either figure out the moves while climbing or fall. And that [dynamic] puzzle aspect of climbing - figuring out both the route and the moves 'on the fly' - which is what I personally value in climbing.

 

The practical benefits of developing your 'on the fly' skills particularly come into play on onsight trad FAs when you are runout with no, or only highly technical or marginal, placements and no place to hang to 'work' the line or the moves. You can definitely compensate for that to some degree with superb physical condition and endurance, but generally only when climbing significantly under your limit. The emotional aspects of trying to figure out a line or moves or technical placements while runout tends to get quite sharp as you approach your limit.

 

I don't "work" climbs specifically because I do groundup, onsight, trad FAs (which means no hanging) and I'm frankly not emotionally capable of switching modes from one to the other on a highly technical and dangerous line. I personally need the consistent 'ethic' in order to do trad FAs in the style that makes them worth doing for me. There is also the issue of what a 'trad FA' even means these days. A lot of 'trad' FAs these days are actually put up with sport / siege tactics. I don't consider them trad FAs, but rather 'sprad FAs' or redpoints-on-gear. Forgive me for clinging to old notion a trad FA still means either FA - free or with a couple of points of aid - or an FFA with no aid - but neither with any hanging and 'working' the line. In the end, the essence of 'trad climbing' was about the absence of hanging, not the absence of bolts - you're either climbing, falling, or being lowered, but never dogging the line.

 

As for bolts, I have no problem saygin I'm not elitist - I'm just completely selfish and utterly misanthropic. We started climbing in part to escape the suburban hordes, and in the pre-gyms era, trad climbing was a ruthless barrier-to-entry that filtered out folks who were just into risk-free entertainment and socializing. We knew all along exactly what risk-free, climbing for entertainment would mean - a "build it and they will come" throwing open of the gates. The whole notion of that is succinctly summed up by the fact that only in today's world could two words representing the best of what we do be twisted and perverted into a reverse oxymoron - 'adventure climbing'.

 

Hey, let's not go and try being rational and intelligent about this stuff. Spray only please.

[RuMR]

logic doesn't apply here...

 

You must remember that they hiked uphill both directions in driving blizzard snows while suffering unbelievably from the scorching 120 degree blazing sun and carrying lead bricks to anchor to so they could ascend their 5.8c/d moss covered, slug infested death defying ankle shattering heroic endeavor of a route. Each time they lowered desperately from the second move (and then the third, then the fourth, and so on...) of the route so as to stay pure to their ideals. This was due to the fact that they didn't want to suffer the "boos" from the massive audiences that also hiked uphill both directions in driving blizzard snows while suffering unbelievably from the scorching 120 degree blazing sun...

[rocky_joe]

shit....5.8c/d?!?! they must be mutants! and in conditions like that? now that's a TR I wanna read.

[RuMR]

you'll have to shoot a pm to dwanus to get the full gory details..

[kevbone]

In the end, the essence of 'trad climbing' was about the absence of hanging, not the absence of bolts

 

Trad means "Traditional" Joseph. It has nothing to do with hang dogging. IMO.....

 

Raindawg and Pope. I respect your view even if I totally disagree. I am still interested in your answer to this question.

 

How many times on a route does it become siege climbing?

[JosephH]

In the end, the essence of 'trad climbing' was about the absence of hanging, not the absence of bolts

Trad means "Traditional" Joseph. It has nothing to do with hang dogging. IMO...

I understand Kevin, but in this case you're wrong. That is exactly what 'climbing' meant before the advent of sport and what 'trad climbing' still means despite the current confused morphing involved with sprad climbing and redpoints-on-gear. Now, the folks who brought us 'adventure climbing' certainly have the requisite majority to hijack the term 'trad climbing' to mean what they do, but it would be a bit more honest to just acknowledge that's what's going on.

[G-spotter]

I don't "work" climbs specifically because I do groundup, onsight, trad FAs (which means no hanging) and I'm frankly not emotionally capable of switching modes from one to the other on a highly technical and dangerous line.

 

That is essentially meaningless babble UNLESS you walk away from any project you ever fall from, never to attempt it again.

[kevbone]

I understand where you are coming from JH. Its just where to you draw the line. Sonny Trotter tried cobra crack (5.14 all gear) several times before sending. Do you downplay that attempt (or others like it) just to keep your old school trend going?