5.15

[JosephH]

How many sport climbs do you suppose there are in N.A.? Average bolt count per climb? Worldwide?

[tvashtarkatena]

let's take a look at your beliefs since I first logged on. In the beginning, you were a raving Bush/neocon supporter, ghey averse as hell, corporation cock sucker, and global warming denier.

 

you're way off, as usual. best go back to your meds

 

Far off? Really? Prove it. Where do our policy beliefs differ, IYHO?

 

 

 

For one thing you are a self-described Democrat with a capital D. I don't identify with a party - parties are disgusting amalgamations of compromise and alliances driven by greed for money and power.

 

When given a choice between one piece of shit and another, we choose a different steaming pile. In your case you "support" your pile of shit. In my case I tolerate it. Hardly any "raving support" on my side, especially for specific political figures or a party as a whole.

 

 

Not substantive, so let's cut the shit, shall we?

 

You agree that Iraq was a big mistake. You didn't before.

You agree that global warming is a huge problem caused by man. You didn't before.

You agree that there should be health care for all, and that there should not be a profit motive. You were rapidly anti-socialist before (and still claim the same, but you're obviously more of a euro-style socialist now).

You agree that all committed couples should be equally granted all the rights of marriage (even if you may or may not agree that it be called 'marriage').

You agree that the US should not torture. I can't remember whether it was you or FW or both who were lauding such practices before.

 

Of course I vote Democrat, which also means that I vote against republicans. I also get out the vote for the Democrats, because I don't believe in passivity when it comes to governance. Since I feel pretty strongly about getting what I believe to be the best agenda enacted, I'm willing to get off my ass and put a little work into it. It's grunt work for an imperfect party. Boo fucking hoo and welcome to the world. You consider yourself 'too good' for that kind of thing, KKK? The bottom line is; because I'm a delegate and because I turn out infrequent voters, I choose to exercise more political power than you do. By all means, please continue to stay home; I obviously like it that way.

 

The Democrats are supposed to be party of middle class values: health care, education, social justice. Is it? Not really...but it's a far cry better than the 'Big Tent'; the party of stupidity, cruelty, selfishness, and myth.

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[G-spotter]

can you two go satisfy your man-love for each other in a political thread instead of this important bolt ethics wankfest?

[tvashtarkatena]

can you two go satisfy your man-love for each other in a political thread instead of this important bolt ethics wankfest?

 

Nope.

[RuMR]

How many sport climbs do you suppose there are in N.A.? Average bolt count per climb? Worldwide?

 

maybe 10 bolts a route on average...definitely less than a 100,000 sport routes...

 

i'd say 15,000 sport pitches would be optimistic...that's 150,000 bolts...

[pope]

How many sport climbs do you suppose there are in N.A.? Average bolt count per climb? Worldwide?

 

maybe 10 bolts a route on average...definitely less than a 100,000 sport routes...

 

i'd say 15,000 sport pitches would be optimistic...that's 150,000 bolts...

 

And that ain't enough, is it now?

[tvashtarkatena]

That's over a bolt per 100 square miles!

[glassgowkiss]

Where one draws a line and claims further advances in the sport are unethical is effectively a completely arbitrary and subjective deliniation. Climbers are always going to be adopting new strategies, techniques, and tools in order to climb bigger steeper and harder things. Such is human nature.

New strategies, techniques, and tools are one thing, but in general all I usually ever ask for is at least a shred of 'take-off-the-blinders' honesty around there being nothing either arbitrary nor subjective about millions of bolts in stone.

i think most people are completely honest about their efforts...i for one, have always expressed how long and hard i got beat down on a particular project before i managed it with no falls...shoot, alot of times, i couldn't even do all the moves...

 

Likewise, its a well known fact that sharma will literally try one of his cutting edge projects over many many seasons...

 

I don't think that's pope and dwayner's point...in fact, i don't much understand their point...they seem to not want people to do something that those people enjoy for some stupid reason...

The point about honesty is about the 'advancement' of climbing didn't come at no cost, it involved the installation of millions of bolts which attracted hundreds of thousands of people to the sport out of which a very small pool of folks 'advanced' the sport.

 

It's definitely a non-issue if you have no problem with the proliferation of bolts and climbers.

what kind of elitist prick attitude is that. maybe because i climbed harder then you means you should not go to the areas i climb in?

There is plenty of areas without bolts, just a bit of walking and imagination will guarantee your desired adventure.

[rocky_joe]

less than 15,000 thousand sport pitched in N.A.?!?! Untrue. there are well over 3k in oregon alone. I'm sure there are less in WA only because OR has smith, but consider nevada, arizona, montana, BC, wyoming, colorado, new york and...i think i'm missing one...oh yeah, California...got to be close to 6 or 7k there, atleast. Then add crags from Mexico. Way more than 15,000 sport routes.

Edited January 14, 2010 by rocky_joe

[pope]

less than 15,000 thousand sport pitched in N.A.?!?! Untrue. there are well over 3k in oregon alone. I'm sure there are less in WA only because OR has smith, but consider nevada, arizona, montana, BC, wyoming, colorado, new york and...i think i'm missing one...oh yeah, California...got to be close to 6 or 7k there, atleast. Then add crags from Mexico. Way more than 15,000 sport routes.

 

And each one is just a little different than the two starting 5 feet away from it.

[denalidave]

I'd wager that if you collected all the bolts in the whole world of outdoor climbing, you might have enough to fill a train car or two. Maybe only half a train car. Certainly no more than several train cars.

[billcoe]

There is plenty of areas without bolts, just a bit of walking and imagination will guarantee your desired adventure.

 

I was thinking this, thanks for saying it. But his point, that bolts will make things safer and thus bring more people: is also true.

 

What's a Mother to do?

 

[rocky_joe]

I'd wager that if you collected all the bolts in the whole world of outdoor climbing, you might have enough to fill a train car or two. Maybe only half a train car. Certainly no more than several train cars.

 

is train cars a stadard unit of measure?

[billcoe]

What's a Mother to do?

When there are no cracks? ............Choosy mothers reach for the Lil Dawg.

"The Dragons Spine". Possibly the anchor.

[pink]

Where one draws a line and claims further advances in the sport are unethical is effectively a completely arbitrary and subjective deliniation. Climbers are always going to be adopting new strategies, techniques, and tools in order to climb bigger steeper and harder things. Such is human nature.

New strategies, techniques, and tools are one thing, but in general all I usually ever ask for is at least a shred of 'take-off-the-blinders' honesty around there being nothing either arbitrary nor subjective about millions of bolts in stone.

i think most people are completely honest about their efforts...i for one, have always expressed how long and hard i got beat down on a particular project before i managed it with no falls...shoot, alot of times, i couldn't even do all the moves...

 

Likewise, its a well known fact that sharma will literally try one of his cutting edge projects over many many seasons...

 

I don't think that's pope and dwayner's point...in fact, i don't much understand their point...they seem to not want people to do something that those people enjoy for some stupid reason...

The point about honesty is about the 'advancement' of climbing didn't come at no cost, it involved the installation of millions of bolts which attracted hundreds of thousands of people to the sport out of which a very small pool of folks 'advanced' the sport.

 

It's definitely a non-issue if you have no problem with the proliferation of bolts and climbers.

what kind of elitist prick attitude is that. maybe because i climbed harder then you means you should not go to the areas i climb in?

There is plenty of areas without bolts, just a bit of walking and imagination will guarantee your desired adventure.

 

so say's the non elite liberal elitist...

[JosephH]

what kind of elitist prick attitude is that. maybe because i climbed harder then you means you should not go to the areas i climb in?

As I posted earlier, nothing elitist about me, I'm just selfish and misanthropic. I started climbing in an area off the beaten path where we were the only climbers and got used to it. I'd love nothing better than to see the sport collapse to the tune of about 90% like windsurfing did. No crowds at launch sites these days.

 

There is plenty of areas without bolts, just a bit of walking and imagination will guarantee your desired adventure.

Get a map, ring it with 15 minute driving time radii around every major city in the county and then start plotting bolts on it in red. Do that for five year intervals starting in 1970 and play that animation forward. Yeah, it requires some driving and walking these days.

 

Probably looks about like this:

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZqeARrD7t0

[JosephH]

How many sport climbs do you suppose there are in N.A.? Average bolt count per climb? Worldwide?

maybe 10 bolts a route on average...definitely less than a 100,000 sport routes...

 

i'd say 15,000 sport pitches would be optimistic...that's 150,000 bolts...

Well, I know one individual in Boulder who's put up about a 1k lines himself in a handful of canyons in the Front Range, so I'm guessing we'd have to push that 15k number up pretty significantly. Just off the top of my head I'd guess CO sports close to that many routes by itself.

[el jefe]

10 bolts per route = 100,000 routes. 50 states = approximately 2000 sport routes per state. let's see, there probably aren't 2000 routes in many states (i'm thinking indiana, ohio, new jersey, maryland, you get the idea).

 

a million bolts sounds like hyperbole to me but then joseph isn't the sort of guy who would let the facts get in the way of something he wants to believe.

[JosephH]

10 bolts per route = 100,000 routes. 50 states = approximately 2000 sport routes per state. let's see, there probably aren't 2000 routes in many states (i'm thinking indiana, ohio, new jersey, maryland, you get the idea).

 

a million bolts sounds like hyperbole to me but then joseph isn't the sort of guy who would let the facts get in the way of something he wants to believe.

I'm guessing there's between 80-100k routes in the lower 48. Take the 11 Western States, 7 Midwest and Mid-Atlantic states, and throw in the 7 New England states, that's 25 states. 9 of the Western states could easily support 5-7k. 2 of the Western states could probably support 10-15k. Of the 7 Midwest and Mid-Atlantic I'm guessing 6 could easily support 1.5-2.5k and 1 could support 7-8k. Call New England, the far South, Texas, and the Plains states 3-5k altogether for the sake of simplicity. That would be between 93-121k routes. Call that high by even 25% and you still get 70-93k. At an average of 8 bolts per route that would still be 560-930k bolts - not all that much hyperbole really. Throw in Alaska, Canada, and Mexico and you're definitely way over the million mark (roughly three 40' containers [bill?]). Throw in the EU and the rest of the world and you're definitely talking millions.

 

Percentage of total folks who put on a harness this year to trad climb? My guess is 15% max - also not much hyperbole. It's pretty simple equation for me - more bolts, more climbers. My preference will always be for less climbers, but as I said, I'm not much of a people person.

[denalidave]

I'd wager that if you collected all the bolts in the whole world of outdoor climbing, you might have enough to fill a train car or two. Maybe only half a train car. Certainly no more than several train cars.

 

is train cars a stadard unit of measure?

Yes, as is "a little bit", "a lot", "a hell-of-a lot" and a "butt load". Standard is kind of a relative term.

[billcoe]

It's interesting that Windsurfing numbers dove. Did it just become unsafe, like you want climbing to head then? Was a just a fad like pet rocks, and maybe climbing will duplicate it.

 

I agree with you that more bolts equals more climbers, however, your Baltimore example above is actually saying that there is more people. Period.

 

More people = more climbers.

More disposable income (free time) = more climbers

Better equipment = more climbers

 

Bolts/safety would still be the #1 item on the list attributable to the growth I believe. Yet it is not the sole factor. More people and safer gear add. Saftey includes better ropes, and as you personally know on Menopause, even some natural gear routes which once are climbed a few times, become safer for later parties climbing boltless as the loose blocks and rocks are tossed off. In that sense, you are adding to the problem of making things safer by cleaning off a new natural gear route. As far as guessing the numbers of bolted routes, the brand new Smith Rock guidebook has 1800+ routes, total. I would guess @ 60% are bolted, the balance cracks. Maybe someone wants to double check that, as the gorge is crack after crack with less bolted routes. As Smith is far and away the largest area in this state, while places like Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, New Mexico etc etc would have significantly less routes, and California possibly more, perhaps the numbers of routes noted above is inflated. Colorado does have the prolific bolter/first ascentionist Bob D'Antonio: while Washington has Fred Becky.

 

Put me down to adding 130 bolts to that total last year. I think there is a place in climbing for bolts at certain areas, and having more, rather than less of those places is a good thing. I know of a secret spot where there is hundreds and hundreds of splitter cracks, and NO other climbers. It's a short walk up a hill from your car and closer to PDX than Smith. If I wasn't such a weak upper-body pussy and doing other things I'd be all over it, and there will most likely never be any bolts other than anchors there.

 

I think that there is plenty of places around here we can go be alone. A good part of my last year was climbing in 3 spots where there is rarely another climber, and if you see one you know who they are. So from my perspective, it's not crowded at all. I'm up in an area now that I probably could never get to everything by myself in my lifetime. Currently no one goes there but me and a couple of friends. I can look out and see untouched cliffs, and drive down the road and see even more unclimbed rock. There's truly too much of it. This stuff needs and ascent or 2 to get the loose crap off, and as you know, it can be slow going ground up. Sometimes it's a slow to go up and rap and trundle. Someone needs to get on all this stuff. Instead, most folks just want to do a lap up Young Warriors or the Corner again.

 

Even those rare times when I go to Smith (if I can find parking) I can pretty much walk up to any 5 star splitter crack over 5.8 and have the route to myself. I rarely have to wait for a route on Monkey Face as well. When I use to Mt climb I'd often see the same thing. Folks would line up for the south side of Hood, or Jeffersons easy route, but never get on anything harder. I do not believe I ever had to share Cooper Spur with another soul that I wasn't tied into, and many was the time I'd be totally alone, and shocked to pop up onto the summit to see hundreds of climbers on top who had toiled up the S Side. Never ever saw anyone on the steep West or North sides of Jeff.

 

From my viewpoint, one of the problems we all share with the current influx of noobs is that they come to climbing from a different angle and attitude. Their learning and knowledge is lacking and incomplete. When I started, we often came in to the game from hiking and the desire to be out in the woods. This brought a certain mindset, one of respect for nature. We then had to learn slowly from existing climbers, so we got to learn about the history and what is right or wrong from a self-imposed ethical standpoint. Now, folks go right from the gym to the rock, with no understanding of restraint on the use of bolts, or the proper time or place for them. This "it just needs bolts" mindset is a terrible thing which all of us are fighting against as it seems to crop up suddenly and in strange places. This is the kind of thing which I suspect that all of us experienced folks, not just Pope and Raindawg, hate and would decry. [/rant]

[kevbone]

how many bolt there are in the world? Wow...that is important

[G-spotter]

It's funny how Joseph is always tossing out these unsupported numbers and how few of them have any reality attached. How does one manage to be so consistently wrong?

[billcoe]

sometimes you just have to jump right into it.

[JosephH]

It's funny how Joseph is always tossing out these unsupported numbers and how few of them have any reality attached. How does one manage to be so consistently wrong?

Well, there is no 'data', but there is reality and that means it's possible to make educated guesses and use a little common sense to extrapolate from what's known. Take a shot at it - how many bolts would you guess are in WA, OR, and ID? What percentage of folks putting on a harness to climb in 2010 will trad climb?