It's a peaceful religion

[ivan]

Yes Ivan.

You are as usual, a positive exception.

I would gladly buy you a beer for your contributions to reason on this site and particularly in spray.

 

As for your bivy buddy, Tvash, he seems to like to argue.

With respect to religious issues, I suspect Tvash is a recovering Catholic. They never seem to get past the damages caused by dogmatic aproaches to spirituality.

damn, beaten to the punch - stink'n work!

 

funny, i got confirmed a catholic on threat of death from my folks, despite the fact that i was a screaming atheist at the time (as opposed to the quietish paranoid agnostic that i am now).

 

and as you should know, of course pat thinks that people are the key problem - we are united i believe in our contempt for all life - we just spend a lot of time quibbling on the specifics

[G-spotter]

Christianity is founded on unconditional love for all humanity.

 

That's what Christians say anyway. Too bad most of them don't act accordingly.

 

There's plenty of Catholic priests with an unconditional love for underage boys.

[mattp]

You guys who rail against the religious right in this country have a point but I’d also say that one thing missing from this conversation is a mention of the fact that most Americans who go to church do not preach hatred and intolerance and this may also be true of Islam. Yesterday there was a show on KUOW where the guest was talking about the more modern and moderate tele-evangelists who are preaching against suicide bombings and teaching tolerance and women's rights on TV in Indonesia, on the Arabian Penninsula, and even here in the US. It doesn’t make good TV and this side of Islam may not draw much attention in our media, but the same is probably true of the bulk of religious America. Other than a few feel-good stories around Christmas time, our media rarely focuses on religious institutions' contributions to this country and Christian compassion doesn’t even enter the discussion of health care reform but we talk about abortion and death panels instead.

[StevenSeagal]

 

But that is not the basis of the religion.

It is the choice of the individual.

 

Except for the fact that most strict interpretations of Christianity state that every followers duty as a Christian is to convert non believers. And in the case of Islam, the Koran is exceedingly clear: convert, subjugate, or kill. Either is a form of violence.

 

So what you should have said is that it's the choice of the individual to selectively ignore certain passages of their holy books- the word of God himself. What a fine contradiction and source of neurosis stacked on top of all the resident fantasy, dogma, and mysticism.

 

The deflection here is to talk about individual variations (extremes) and avoid questioning of the whole basis of faith.

 

 

[bstach]

I agree w MattP....you only see the fundamentalists and kooks in the media because thats what sells. It has been my experience that most main stream religious organizations do tremendous good for their communities as per Tvash experience.

[Pete_H]

You did confirm my "suspicion" that you were raised Catholic.

 

RACIAL PROFILING!!

RACIAL PROFILING!!!

[Jim]

Christianity is founded on unconditional love for all humanity.

 

That's what Christians say anyway. Too bad most of them don't act accordingly.

Beat me to it. What is a hoot. Unconditional in all those oh so conditional ways.

 

The Inquisition and the Crusades were just blips.

[tvashtarkatena]

You did confirm my "suspicion" that you were raised Catholic.

 

RACIAL PROFILING!!

RACIAL PROFILING!!!

 

That, and I've posted about being raised Catholic several times already...hardly a 'secret', and why would it be?

 

Nothing to see here. Move on.

[Bug]

 

But that is not the basis of the religion.

It is the choice of the individual.

 

Except for the fact that most strict interpretations of Christianity state that every followers duty as a Christian is to convert non believers. And in the case of Islam, the Koran is exceedingly clear: convert, subjugate, or kill. Either is a form of violence.

 

So what you should have said is that it's the choice of the individual to selectively ignore certain passages of their holy books- the word of God himself. What a fine contradiction and source of neurosis stacked on top of all the resident fantasy, dogma, and mysticism.

 

The deflection here is to talk about individual variations (extremes) and avoid questioning of the whole basis of faith.

 

You go ahead and stick with the "strict interpretations" with the fanatical right. It does make for a good heated arguement.

I choose not to.

Therefor it has nothing to do with me.

 

"the word of God himself" does not reside in any book. That is the greatest failing of Christianity IMO. Neitze wrote "Never was there so great a persecutor of CHristians as Saul until Paul."

He spoke of religion and the beleif in God.

I would use the same Statement but because Paul Judaized and ritualized Christianity. It did not have to be that way. And now we have "Good Christians" who beleive that God speaks through a book when it is that which resides in their hearts and minds that matters.

Muhammed and his council took it one step further and actually presented the book as the word of God. It was also the original Protestantism. It provided direct access to God whereas Christianity had become so ritualized and dogmatic that you had to go through a preist for all the deepest rituals.

So now we are in a new age of cognizant change.

The beginning of the computer age is what we are toying with right now. We are building new institutions while the old ones crumble and pointing fingers like it is somebody's fault. As a species we have learned very little.

 

[StevenSeagal]

 

But that is not the basis of the religion.

It is the choice of the individual.

 

Except for the fact that most strict interpretations of Christianity state that every followers duty as a Christian is to convert non believers. And in the case of Islam, the Koran is exceedingly clear: convert, subjugate, or kill. Either is a form of violence.

 

So what you should have said is that it's the choice of the individual to selectively ignore certain passages of their holy books- the word of God himself. What a fine contradiction and source of neurosis stacked on top of all the resident fantasy, dogma, and mysticism.

 

The deflection here is to talk about individual variations (extremes) and avoid questioning of the whole basis of faith.

 

You go ahead and stick with the "strict interpretations" with the fanatical right. It does make for a good heated arguement.

I choose not to.

Therefor it has nothing to do with me.

 

"the word of God himself" does not reside in any book. That is the greatest failing of Christianity IMO. Neitze wrote "Never was there so great a persecutor of CHristians as Saul until Paul."

He spoke of religion and the beleif in God.

I would use the same Statement but because Paul Judaized and ritualized Christianity. It did not have to be that way. And now we have "Good Christians" who beleive that God speaks through a book when it is that which resides in their hearts and minds that matters.

Muhammed and his council took it one step further and actually presented the book as the word of God. It was also the original Protestantism. It provided direct access to God whereas Christianity had become so ritualized and dogmatic that you had to go through a preist for all the deepest rituals.

So now we are in a new age of cognizant change.

The beginning of the computer age is what we are toying with right now. We are building new institutions while the old ones crumble and pointing fingers like it is somebody's fault. As a species we have learned very little.

 

there's a big difference between private, personal spiritual belief and practice, versus organized mass consumption of religious dogma. You are clearly in the minority as the former, yet you speak as though the other is just "distorting the true meaning" of religion. Both sides in their defense of faith will in the final hour act as apologists for each other even in their criticisms.

 

The Islam of today is, culturally and in critical interpretation, what Christianity was in the 14th century. The moderate thinkers of Islam- who are plentiful- are imprisoned by this culture and are only beginning to find their voice. Fear is a powerful motivator for keeping people quiet. And I am quite sure the only hope the world has with integrating Islam into a modern civil society lies with the Islamic moderates. A Renaissance in the religion will have to come from within and appear to be their own idea. How painful it must have been for Christian reformers to have to admit its methods were wrong and to change them without changing the underlying story.

 

The irony is that western Christians decry the decline in religion of late; I'd say much of this has to do with the separation of church and state: left with the freedom to believe- or not- rather than a boot on their neck, increasing numbers of Europeans and Americans have come to see that all that is good in organized religion can be found elsewhere and that a "moral existence" is possible without religious edict and oversight. Islamic societies would likely take the same course were it not for the omnipresent imposition of the rules at every stage in life and often through the state.

 

Certain people are more predisposed to imposing their will upon others; unfortunately organized religion offers a perfect vehicle for this on a societal level. I have no issue with personal spiritual practice but there is a compelling reason why religious institutions cannot be allowed to govern any society.

[Bug]

You did confirm my "suspicion" that you were raised Catholic.

 

RACIAL PROFILING!!

RACIAL PROFILING!!!

 

That, and I've posted about being raised Catholic several times already...hardly a 'secret', and why would it be?

 

Nothing to see here. Move on.

Dodging, dodging, and more dodging.

You are right.

Nothing to see here.

More wasted time in spray.

Unlike other days when spray is a worthwhile endeavor.

 

 

 

[Pete_H]

Relax. It was joke.

[Pete_H]

Apparently, not a very good one.

[tvashtarkatena]

SS tapped into a modern trend: the abandonment of deist religions worldwide. Humanity is finally figuring out that a life fully lived requires no such bed time stories. Governments have become increasingly secular. Perhaps the press garnished by fundamentalism is a last gasp before humanity finally abandons the Great Big Fuzzy Kitty myth altogether and truly moves into the modern age.

[AlpineK]

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSe38dzJYkY&NR=1

[G-spotter]

I think a proper religion should have proper gods

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C5XuylNFLo

[Bug]

Relax. It was joke.

No problem there.

I was responding to Pat's lack of staying power.

I would like to hear more about how and why he thinks like a scientific fundamentalist but he refuses to look in the mirror and describe what he sees.

It's funny. I was raised in a purely atheistic household and he was raised in a Catholic household. It seems my experiences left me with a more open mind. But then again, maybe it's just a matter of time before the rest of the world falls in line with him.

All those thousands of years of superstitious mumbo-jumbo from every corner of the world can't really amount to anything. Just a lot of fuzzy kitties out there.........

[StevenSeagal]

All those thousands of years of superstitious mumbo-jumbo from every corner of the world can't really amount to anything. Just a lot of fuzzy kitties out there.........

 

Actually, what there is is thousands of years and billions of human beings who shared the same mind: simultaneously blessed and cursed with the trait of self and ego, baffled and horrified at the sense of it's own impermanance and convinced that this vast world must therefore have been the work of a creator greater than itself and constructed around and exclusively for one particular species. And further, that the death of the physical body must not constitute the end if itself but rather a step beyond into total omniscience, permanence, and ascension to said being's right arm.

 

No better example than today's news about the Taliban brainwashing children in Pakistan to be suicide bombers by schooling them in rooms with paintings of paradise: rivers of milk and honey with endless hot virgins at your pleasure and little boys as servants. Basically, the most sexually repressive culture in the world promises you that for blowing yourself up and killing untold numbers of unbelievers, you and any Muslim bystander victims are rewarded with infinite residence in an al fresco bordello.

[G-spotter]

but steven, WHAT IF THAT'S TRUE?

[StevenSeagal]

but steven, WHAT IF THAT'S TRUE?

 

then hopefully the virgins are all blondes with big boobies.

[tvashtarkatena]

Well, it might be close mindedness, but then, growing up in Northern Cali, where you can't swing a dead yogi without hitting one of the faux enlightened, I might be somewhat less inclined to share the awe and wonder of a guy like Bug's often advertised voyage of self described apotheosis...particularly when adorned with tales of fog controlling fakirs. Whatever fills your emotional potholes, myan, but it ain't exactly the first time I've run into One who's found The Way...and who assumes you've lost yours, of course. That club footed second idea, the seat of the suburban shaman's true spirituality, never fails to shuffle behind the first, its way presumably lit by a lustrous aura that is, well, only lustrous aura deep. In this way, the So Much More Enlightened Than Thou are really no different than their raving evangelical brethren.

 

A True Believer's credibility isn't necessarily enhanced when the Majority Rules argument is invariably trotted out; an near certainty whenever the uber open minded spiritual wunderkind trips over a bit of healthy skepticism regarding the mystical universe they've created for themselves. If I was the only atheist on the planet, I'd still be an atheist, cuz I really don't give a shit what the rest of the herd believes.

Edited January 6, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

Of course, I mean all that in the very best sense.

[ivan]

but steven, WHAT IF THAT'S TRUE?

 

then hopefully the virgins are all blondes with big boobies.

dude, i would kill all of you if i thought that would get me in!

 

i always wondered why in the end they all have to be virgins though - wtf? i'm thinking it's far, far better if half of them are dirty, dirty, dirty...

[Choada_Boy]

I frequently brainwash children into believing that the test of all knowledge is experiment and that matter/energy exists in discrete quanta. Does this make me a bad person?

[Bug]

I frequently brainwash children into believing that the test of all knowledge is experiment and that matter/energy exists in discrete quanta. Does this make me a bad person?

No. You were bad already.