It's a peaceful religion

[Bug]

Well, it might be close mindedness, but then, growing up in Northern Cali, where you can't swing a dead yogi without hitting one of the faux enlightened, I might be somewhat less inclined to share the awe and wonder of a guy like Bug's often advertised voyage of self described apotheosis...particularly when adorned with tales of fog controlling fakirs. Whatever fills your emotional potholes, myan, but it ain't exactly the first time I've run into One who's found The Way...and who assumes you've lost yours, of course. That club footed second idea, the seat of the suburban shaman's true spirituality, never fails to shuffle behind the first, its way presumably lit by a lustrous aura that is, well, only lustrous aura deep. In this way, the So Much More Enlightened Than Thou are really no different than their raving evangelical brethren.

 

A True Believer's credibility isn't necessarily enhanced when the Majority Rules argument is invariably trotted out; an near certainty whenever the uber open minded spiritual wunderkind trips over a bit of healthy skepticism regarding the mystical universe they've created for themselves. If I was the only atheist on the planet, I'd still be an atheist, cuz I really don't give a shit what the rest of the herd believes.

Ah. I see your problem.

You are making a whole pile of false assumptions.

Who would have guessed.

 

Just an FYI, if you were not such a tireless evangalist for your endless stream of truths, you might have time to have a real conversation.

Just sayin.....

[Bug]

but steven, WHAT IF THAT'S TRUE?

 

then hopefully the virgins are all blondes with big boobies.

I'm pretty sure that is not high on the "likely" list.

 

Have you been out to http://mylifeisaverage.com/ to post that?

[XXX]

SS tapped into a modern trend: the abandonment of deist religions worldwide. Humanity is finally figuring out that a life fully lived requires no such bed time stories. Governments have become increasingly secular. Perhaps the press garnished by fundamentalism is a last gasp before humanity finally abandons the Great Big Fuzzy Kitty myth altogether and truly moves into the modern age.

 

Funny people were saying this 100 years ago too.

Believe what you want but the fact is that Christianity is growing rapidly in places like China, the rest of Asia, Africa and many other parts of the world.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2010 by XXX

[olyclimber]

Not nearly as fast as Islamic religion is

[prole]

 

You better wake up, it's late.

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2TyF1CbsDs

[Bug]

I'm awake.

Need coffee...............

Then I am going to peace out.

No spray.

[prole]

Thanks for the Facebook status update.

[XXX]

Not nearly as fast as Islamic religion is

 

WRONG! Didn't Regan say to Gorby trust but verify?

 

The vast majority of islamic growth is through reproduction. Whereas the latest trends show the vast majority of Christian growth is through conversion plus reproduction.

 

Christianity is the fastest growing religion in South America, Africa, and Asia.

 

There is a 600 percent growth of Protestant Christianity in Vietnam. Additionally Evangelical Christianity (GASP to some!) is the fastest growing denomination in China. I don't know if you have been to China, but house churches are popping up everywhere, and that is one reason the Chinnese goverment has so brutally cracked down in recent years on the Church in China.

 

The vast majority of muslims living in China live along the western and marginal edge in very rural areas. And most of its growth is due to natural birth rates (not conversion) Christianity meanwhile is growing in most of urban China. Current estimates are between 40 million on the low end, to 150 million on the high end. At current rates China may be the center of the evangelical world by mid century.

 

Europe is a different story, only because immigration from Muslim nations is higher, and Europe tends to be secular.

 

I know all the athiest on this board hate to hear this news. But Christianity is alive and doing very well in most of the non western world.

Edited January 6, 2010 by XXX

[StevenSeagal]

[

 

I know all the athiest on this board hate to hear this news. But Christianity is alive and doing very well in most of the non western world.

 

I was only speaking of the ongoing complaints from Christians themselves of the decline in Christian values in the west. The numbers, and proliferation of, the faithful I'm sure are quite healthy. Although I do think that secular governments are still the trend, and hopefully will continue to be.

 

And actually, it doesn't bother me at all XXX; people should have the freedom to choose to believe whatever they want or to not believe at all. My above rants were directed primarily at the ongoing attempts by organized religion to govern societies.

 

While I also don't appreciate being proselytized, I also have the freedom to disagree and walk away.

 

It still makes me wonder though: what was the qualitative nature of this growth by "conversion". The very word sounds intrusive and manipulative. Do most of these conversions come from genuine insights and unbiased contemplation, or from coercion, exploitation, and fear? If it is the latter and it still makes you proud, well...

[billcoe]

The vast majority of islamic growth is through reproduction. Whereas the latest trends show the vast majority of Christian growth is through conversion plus reproduction. Christianity is the fastest growing religion in South America, Africa, and Asia.

 

What kind of conversion rates are you seeing in like Saudi Arabia or anywhere in the middle east I wonder?

[XXX]

The vast majority of islamic growth is through reproduction. Whereas the latest trends show the vast majority of Christian growth is through conversion plus reproduction. Christianity is the fastest growing religion in South America, Africa, and Asia.

 

What kind of conversion rates are you seeing in like Saudi Arabia or anywhere in the middle east I wonder?

 

Pretty terrible from what I hear, but Saudi Arabia is an extermely repressed society. I read somewhere that there were around 13,000 in Saudi Arabia? I could be wrong.

 

Many Christians living in arab countries are leaving! Living in an Islamic society is much different then living in a Christian or even Bhuddhist nation.

 

I would argue that the rise of secular govermrent is much more possible in a Christian or Bhuddist nation versus a Muslim nation. Some here may disagree, but choice is an inherent principle in the Judeo/Christian ethic.

[tvashtarkatena]

We all hear how fast this and that religion is growing...unsubstantiated stuff, mostly, but how fast compared to overall population growth? Meanwhile, many religions are famously losing members by the millions; Catholism comes to mind. Many countries, Japan, Europe, etc, have abandoned religion in an almost wholesale fashion. God's will no longer even registers on their political list of issues.

 

Not that I care. The world is fucked in the aggregate for the duration of my lifetime, I figure, but one can still have a great experience during the time allotted here.

Edited January 6, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[XXX]

We all hear how fast this and that religion is growing...unsubstantiated stuff, mostly, but how fast compared to overall population growth? Meanwhile, many religions are famously losing members by the millions; Catholism comes to mind. Many countries, Japan, Europe, etc, have abandoned religion in an almost wholesale fashion. God's will no longer even registers on their political list of issues.

 

Not that I care. The world is fucked in the aggregate for the duration of my lifetime, I figure, but one can still have a great experience during the time allotted here.

 

Unsubstantiated stuff? Seems like the same thing can be said about what you are saying.

 

And your right Catholicism may be losing numbers, but many evangelical sects are gaining numbers big time.

 

You ask for numbers:

 

In 1900 Africa had around 10 million Christians out of a continental population of 107 about nine percent. Today there are 360 million Christians out of 784 million, (nearly half of the population claims to be Christians).

 

As far as China goes, most researchers (including most secular sources) estimate the number of Christians to be at around 1 million in 1949. In the past 50 years there has been a 60 fold increase in Christianity. Today there are 50 to 120 million Christians in China (120 being the high end).

 

The largest church in the world is in Korea, over a million people!

 

I am not denying the fact that religion is at a stand still in Europe. I should say Christianity, because Islam is growing in Europe. And yes religion still does factor into politics in Europe and the west. The events of 9/11 is a good reminder of this. Just look at the ban on Minarets in Switzerland. Expect a backlash there. But the fact of the matter is that Christianity is growing rapidly in most of the non western nations.

Edited January 6, 2010 by XXX

[olyclimber]

Not nearly as fast as Islamic religion is

 

WRONG! Didn't Regan say to Gorby trust but verify?

 

The vast majority of islamic growth is through reproduction. Whereas the latest trends show the vast majority of Christian growth is through conversion plus reproduction.

 

Christianity is the fastest growing religion in South America, Africa, and Asia.

 

There is a 600 percent growth of Protestant Christianity in Vietnam. Additionally Evangelical Christianity (GASP to some!) is the fastest growing denomination in China. I don't know if you have been to China, but house churches are popping up everywhere, and that is one reason the Chinnese goverment has so brutally cracked down in recent years on the Church in China.

 

The vast majority of muslims living in China live along the western and marginal edge in very rural areas. And most of its growth is due to natural birth rates (not conversion) Christianity meanwhile is growing in most of urban China. Current estimates are between 40 million on the low end, to 150 million on the high end. At current rates China may be the center of the evangelical world by mid century.

 

Europe is a different story, only because immigration from Muslim nations is higher, and Europe tends to be secular.

 

I know all the athiest on this board hate to hear this news. But Christianity is alive and doing very well in most of the non western world.

 

yes reagan said it and so did many others, including the super furry animals.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion

 

i stand corrected, but it is by some measure the "fastest growing". but you can make statistics say whatever you want, so that doesn't mean much.

 

[bstach]

You better wake up, it's late.

 

That's what she said.

[tvashtarkatena]

We all hear how fast this and that religion is growing...unsubstantiated stuff, mostly, but how fast compared to overall population growth? Meanwhile, many religions are famously losing members by the millions; Catholism comes to mind. Many countries, Japan, Europe, etc, have abandoned religion in an almost wholesale fashion. God's will no longer even registers on their political list of issues.

 

Not that I care. The world is fucked in the aggregate for the duration of my lifetime, I figure, but one can still have a great experience during the time allotted here.

 

Unsubstantiated stuff? Seems like the same thing can be said about what you are saying.

 

And your right Catholicism may be losing numbers, but many evangelical sects are gaining numbers big time.

 

You ask for numbers:

 

In 1900 Africa had around 10 million Christians out of a continental population of 107 about nine percent. Today there are 360 million Christians out of 784 million, (nearly half of the population claims to be Christians).

 

As far as China goes, most researchers (including most secular sources) estimate the number of Christians to be at around 1 million in 1949. In the past 50 years there has been a 60 fold increase in Christianity. Today there are 50 to 120 million Christians in China (120 being the high end).

 

The largest church in the world is in Korea, over a million people!

 

I am not denying the fact that religion is at a stand still in Europe. I should say Christianity, because Islam is growing in Europe. And yes religion still does factor into politics in Europe and the west. The events of 9/11 is a good reminder of this. Just look at the ban on Minarets in Switzerland. Expect a backlash there. But the fact of the matter is that Christianity is growing rapidly in most of the non western nations.

 

Well, I never threw out any numbers, so it's hard to be unsubstantiated, isn't it?

 

You failed to included the LOSS of religiosity in Europe, the latin world, and elsewhere during the same periods you mentioned, that offset the numbers you'e posted above.

 

Such aggregate numbers, in the end, have little meaning, as they don't even begin to describe actual practice of said religions after they've been adapted to local customs. In many areas of the Andes, for example, the locals have simply taken many of their pre-Christian practices, sprinkled in a few saints (more feast days=more parties), and called it good. It looks a lot more like what they've been practicing for two thousand years or more than anything we would call Christianity in the U.S. It seems like many African cultures have done the same.

 

Then there's the fervor of belief and practice. This has definitely plummeted right here in the U.S., for example. While many here still claim to be Christian, they do virtually nothing to observe that faith, in sharp contrast to decades past when church attendance and other formal practice was much more common than today.

 

The truth of the matter is, a lot of people in decades past did the whole church thing for the kids. Had they not had kids, they wouldn't have bothered. We now live in a society where over half of all households are single person; not surprisingly, people increasingly aren't bothering anymore. In addition, agnosticism and atheism have largely lost their taboo status today. Other spiritual and philosophical ways of being are now accessible. Put all this together, and we have a nation that is far, far less religious than advertised by the more evangelical sects to bolster their largely failed political agenda.

Edited January 7, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[StevenSeagal]

Yeah but that doesn't mean you aren't going to hell, Tvash.

[XXX]

We all hear how fast this and that religion is growing...unsubstantiated stuff, mostly, but how fast compared to overall population growth? Meanwhile, many religions are famously losing members by the millions; Catholism comes to mind. Many countries, Japan, Europe, etc, have abandoned religion in an almost wholesale fashion. God's will no longer even registers on their political list of issues.

 

Not that I care. The world is fucked in the aggregate for the duration of my lifetime, I figure, but one can still have a great experience during the time allotted here.

 

Unsubstantiated stuff? Seems like the same thing can be said about what you are saying.

 

And your right Catholicism may be losing numbers, but many evangelical sects are gaining numbers big time.

 

You ask for numbers:

 

In 1900 Africa had around 10 million Christians out of a continental population of 107 about nine percent. Today there are 360 million Christians out of 784 million, (nearly half of the population claims to be Christians).

 

As far as China goes, most researchers (including most secular sources) estimate the number of Christians to be at around 1 million in 1949. In the past 50 years there has been a 60 fold increase in Christianity. Today there are 50 to 120 million Christians in China (120 being the high end).

 

The largest church in the world is in Korea, over a million people!

 

I am not denying the fact that religion is at a stand still in Europe. I should say Christianity, because Islam is growing in Europe. And yes religion still does factor into politics in Europe and the west. The events of 9/11 is a good reminder of this. Just look at the ban on Minarets in Switzerland. Expect a backlash there. But the fact of the matter is that Christianity is growing rapidly in most of the non western nations.

 

Well, I never threw out any numbers, so it's hard to be unsubstantiated, isn't it?

 

You failed to included the LOSS of religiosity in Europe, the latin world, and elsewhere during the same periods you mentioned, that offset the numbers you'e posted above.

 

 

I did mention Europe. But the reality is that the majority of Europe's population is aging and on the decline compared to most parts of the world. Regardless of whether Europe and parts of the United States are in decline, it has been remarkably offset by the increase in rather traditional christian churches in the rest of the world.

 

Did I forget to Mention Pastor Cho's church in Korea, which is nearly a million members strong? Pretty similar to any main stream church in America (think Joel Osteen). You seem to discount the fact that global Christianity is on the rise.

 

That being said the Pacific Northwest has largely been a secular region of the United States, but that has somewhat changed in recent years. The largest churches in the area are growing VERY FAST and are mostly what most would define as Evangelical I.E. Marshill in Ballard, City Church, Christian Faith Center, Champion Center just to name a few. And each one of these churches alone have at least 6,000 members. The pacific northwest has actually become quite religious in the last ten years.

 

In the end I agree with you, many Christians in the United States have a marginal faith at best. But even a marginal faith has a huge influence on the culture of a society.

[tvashtarkatena]

That was then, this is now.

 

The high growth local churches are all Big Box; largely a byproduct of the economic boom. Their model of big donations fueling big religious entertainment supplying the 'God will make you rich' message doesn't quite carry the same gravitas nowadays. God fucked their membership in the ass, that Bastard. These God-marts have deflated rapidly since the collapse. Add to that their overbuilding frenzy and you get many of these churches on the verge of financial collapse.

 

The Christian agenda has largely failed regarding public policy. All heat, no light. They've been subjected to a wholesale ass raping in the courts regarding prayer in schools, ID, and discrimination against gays. It seemed as though the Kooks routed the forces of reason during the Defense of Marriage Act craze in the 90s, but those laws have proven to lack teeth; they are falling like flies in legislatures and courts state by state, often on fundamental constitutional grounds. Society increasingly gives a big yawn when confronted with 'the gay problem'. This is probably in no small part due to the coming out movement spearheaded by Harvey Milk and his contemporaries. Roe V Wade still stands, virtually untouched, after nearly 40 years of attack. Denial of funding for abortion providers is evaporating. Abstinence education is now a bad joke.

 

The bottom line is that the conservative movement pandered to the Christian Right's agenda for votes, but largely ignored the fucking kooks. Nearly every time they've succeeded in getting a small part of their agenda passed, it runs head on into the fundamental American values of decency, fairness, privacy, and live and let live. Somehow, none of their stuff ever seems to stick when exposed to the light of day.

 

Don't get me wrong, the Christian Right is still a major threat to basic American liberty, but that threat is on the decline after a track record of so much failure. A growing majority of Americans would prefer to emerge from the Middle Ages. In ten years, this country will look very, very different. If current, long term trends continue, it'll be a hell of a lot more socially liberal place, and no one will even think twice about how it got there.

Edited January 7, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[Bug]

Yeah but that doesn't mean you aren't going to hell, Tvash.

Anyone with three or more posts in spray is going to hell.

God told me.

[Mal_Con]

If you have more than 3 posts here you are already in hell.

[AlpineK]

There is only one true god

[img:center]http://tkmrgn.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/fm475_king_kong_vs_godzilla.jpg[/img]

 

 

[ivan]

Yeah but that doesn't mean you aren't going to hell, Tvash.

Anyone with three or more posts in spray is going to hell.

God told me.

 

funny - i have this visceral memory of being 9 years old and, reflecting on my playground langauge and demeanor, realizing i was w/o a doubt strait-fucked n' hell-bound!

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm not going to Hell.

 

I am Hell.

[XXX]

That was then, this is now.

 

The high growth local churches are all Big Box; largely a byproduct of the economic boom. Their model of big donations fueling big religious entertainment supplying the 'God will make you rich' message doesn't quite carry the same gravitas nowadays. God fucked their membership in the ass, that Bastard. These God-marts have deflated rapidly since the collapse. Add to that their overbuilding frenzy and you get many of these churches on the verge of financial collapse.

 

Oh so your Bill Mahr now?