Sport vs Trad

[el jefe]

how come dave gets a scare bear from brainfog and i don't? guess i just have to try harder...

[el jefe]

how come dave gets a scare bear from brainfog and i don't? guess i just have to try harder...

[backclipped]

Face climbing is fun.

 

I like the shiny bolts. The shinier the better. They look the best when the sun is all bright and high and makes them twinkle.

 

I like Twinkies too. So good when following bolts up towards the sky. Maybe I could sweeten Pope up with half of one of my Twinkies. But I don't think Pope likes Twinkies. I think he likes poop.

 

 

[kevbone]

 

It ain't all about "seeing them"....

 

Raindawg. You know I like you and respect you even if we disagree. But your statement does not jive. “It ain't all about "seeing them"? You got to be kidding?

UH…..if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it fall….did it make noise? Same concept I believe. If you cannot see the bolts….then you don’t know they are there.

 

[jfs1978]

...

[img:left]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/russian_roulette.gif[/img]

don't know'bout'the bone's, but my POTD award wears serious merit, and you my'man have earned it w/ the no-doubt wicked-ardous research that musta been necessary to root-out this gem

Woot woot! serious merit indeed. I'll be mounting the award on my bathroom wall with a couple 3/8 inch Rawls - so as to admire it from my throne. Hand-drilled on lead of course.

[BirdDog]

Good thing you circled all the bolts in red so we could actually SEE THEM...

 

It ain't all about "seeing them"....it's about leaving your mark, or not. It's about minimal impact. There are very few bolted climbs at Vantage that couldn't be top-roped to avoid the mess.

 

Raindawg to address your previous post - you are correct, crampons, rock shoes etc... don't leave a trace as bolts do. But bolts leave just a trace, nothing compared trails, roads, carbon footprint of driving to a pristine crag etc...

 

As far top-roping at Vantage, no . The vegetation on top is very fragile and hoards trampling it for top roping would leave far more of an impact than the trace left by bolts. Not to mention the safety issue of knocking down loose rocks.

[mattp]

That's a good point, bird dog. Particularly at or even below the top of some of the popular crack climbs at Vantage, the piles of loose rock are a nightmare and present a serious hazard. A careful belayer has a difficult time not beaning their follower and a pre-set top rope is even more dangerous quite often.

 

Also, Fish and Wildlife has asked climbers to consolidate trails and encourage limited traffic on top out of concern for impact. I don't know if they specifically requested it but having good rappel stations at the top of the routes does well to address these concerns.

 

Once, several years ago, I was told that a local anti-bolt activist climber was seen removing trail signs placed by an Access Fund work party that were addressing this issue of trying to control/direct traffic up on top. I was also told that this person had a beef with the Access Fund or the notion of climbers organizing out at Vantage because he equated that with sport climbing. If that is true, it is an example of how the politics of these situations can work to our disadvantage. Whether you think bolts are good or bad, the heated nature of this issue has hampered climbers' ability to work with land managers and climbing areas have even been threatened by bolt wars.

[stevetimetravlr]

As someone who enjoys trad climbing, I find that sport climbing has actually taken the pressure off the good trad climbing areas. You can enjoy trad climbing in a generally noncrowded atmosphere, but when you want to mix it up a bit or work on technique and push yourself,go sport climbing. It's all righteous.

[pope]

.... you are correct, crampons, rock shoes etc... don't leave a trace as bolts do. But bolts leave just a trace, nothing compared trails, roads, carbon footprint of driving to a pristine crag etc...

 

Listen pal, YOU are participating in an activity in which YOU can control YOUR impacts. Pointing to a road and excusing your bullshit because a greater impact was made by somebody else is weaksauce and I think you know it. You're not free to steal a bicycle just because a guy across the street is stealing a car.

 

.... As far top-roping at Vantage, no . The vegetation on top is very fragile and hoards trampling it for top roping would leave far more of an impact than the trace left by bolts. Not to mention the safety issue of knocking down loose rocks.

 

Sport climbing has attracted large crowds which have trampled more fragile vegetation than previous generations of crack climbers and top-ropers ever did. Take away the bolts, there go the crowds. Take away the crowds, there go the social trails and erosion.

[jon]

Hey will people still be clipping bolts when the routes are underwater from overheating the planet?

[Kimmo]

No, dude....just done with you and a few others similar. I've been away for awhile doing some exciting field work....enjoy your cubicle.

 

i'm not sure what you are talking about with cubicle, since i haven't sat in one for a decade, but i'm glad you enjoyed your exciting adventure. what does the holy text of judaism say about grave-robbery, btw?

 

Maybe there ARE things to complain about. Maybe you don't want to hear about it. Too bad. Keep your head in the sand and pretend "it's all good" with no dissent, just the way YOU WOULD like to see it.

 

it is all good, pretty much. i mean sure there are those who find something to complain about wherever they go, but i kinda like the "everything is perfect exactly the way it is, and there is room for improvement" approach. i think the the holy texts of judaism talk about this issue too, and how one shouldn't be bitter and whiny all the time (it's really a sin against god).

 

Looking for the punchline of an anti-Semitic joke?

Poached right from another topic on cc.com:

A real knee-slapper!

Proud of yourself?

B-bye!

 

i think even yahweh cracked a little smile, man. get over yourself; it's what god wants you to do.

[richard_noggin]

Listen pal, YOU are participating in an activity in which YOU can control YOUR impacts. Pointing to a road and excusing your bullshit because a greater impact was made by somebody else is weaksauce and I think you know it. You're not free to steal a bicycle just because a guy across the street is stealing a car.

 

Such as mountainbike'n just cause someone tore up the trail before you doesn't mean you should keep doing it, control your impact , if you can't walk or hike stay out of the great outdoors!!!

Just being facetious I mountain bike also, but do you get the point there POOP!

I mean how would you like it if I went whining about the impact of mountain biking, stir’n up shit and scew’n with access to your favorite hobby, the trails I ride are not in any guide, I am a purist, So your style is unacceptable.

[billcoe]

inane post edited by Bill

Edited December 8, 2009 by billcoe

[Raindawg]

No, dude....just done with you and a few others similar. I've been away for awhile doing some exciting field work....enjoy your cubicle.

 

i'm not sure what you are talking about with cubicle, since i haven't sat in one for a decade, but i'm glad you enjoyed your exciting adventure. what does the holy text of judaism say about grave-robbery, btw?

 

Maybe there ARE things to complain about. Maybe you don't want to hear about it. Too bad. Keep your head in the sand and pretend "it's all good" with no dissent, just the way YOU WOULD like to see it.

 

it is all good, pretty much. i mean sure there are those who find something to complain about wherever they go, but i kinda like the "everything is perfect exactly the way it is, and there is room for improvement" approach. i think the the holy texts of judaism talk about this issue too, and how one shouldn't be bitter and whiny all the time (it's really a sin against god).

 

Looking for the punchline of an anti-Semitic joke?

Poached right from another topic on cc.com:

A real knee-slapper!

Proud of yourself?

B-bye!

 

i think even yahweh cracked a little smile, man. get over yourself; it's what god wants you to do.

 

You are ignorant and wrong in so many ways. You bring religion into a bolting discussion as a form of personal attack. I'm surprised they allow you to post here given the nature of some of your recent comments.

[Raindawg]

 

It ain't all about "seeing them"....

 

Raindawg. You know I like you and respect you even if we disagree. But your statement does not jive. “It ain't all about "seeing them"? You got to be kidding?

UH…..if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it fall….did it make noise? Same concept I believe. If you cannot see the bolts….then you don’t know they are there.

 

Out of sight, out of mind, eh?

 

So would it be O.K. for me to pick a vertical line somewhere and scratch my initials in the rock about every six feet or so? Nobody will see it unless they're right nearby and I can even make it smaller than a bolt hanger. How about if I carved my initials in the trunk of one of those beautiful larch trees up in the Enchantments...right below some of the lower branches where they'll be less visible? O.K. with that? Or how about a big 'ole Via Ferrata with the hardware colored to blend in quite a bit? What say?

[denalidave]

 

It ain't all about "seeing them"....

 

Raindawg. You know I like you and respect you even if we disagree. But your statement does not jive. “It ain't all about "seeing them"? You got to be kidding?

UH…..if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it fall….did it make noise? Same concept I believe. If you cannot see the bolts….then you don’t know they are there.

 

Out of sight, out of mind, eh?

 

So would it be O.K. for me to pick a vertical line somewhere and scratch my initials in the rock about every six feet or so?

I won't mind if it helps you send your proj, Dawg, dude.

[RuMR]

he was soooo close last time, but, alas, the alarm clock went BRRRRING and he woke up...

 

so tanatalizing close...

[billcoe]

edited as the mods cut and pasted all of these posts into spray from below a good Alan Watts post in the Oregon Forun wherein Pope and Raindawg attacked and nastiness such as inane Clown photos by moi were posted in response...

 

Like Raindawg, I too have nothing to say, however, I've decided it's best to not say it again this time.

[mattp]

Bill:

 

I have no clue what you mean here. But I suspect my early-on post about how I wish people could someday engage in real discussion, and that I think a discussion where everybody actually takes personal ownership of their positions (like maybe posting in their real name) would be refreshing, might be appropriate. Are you suggesting that somebody here is a clown? Are you suggesting the whole idea of discussion is a joke? I don't know.

 

I'm interested in some discussion, and this might include whether bolts are "good" or "bad" as some are discussing here or the questions I asked, like where do we think the general "debate" of sport v. trad stands, or "don't you think that bolt wars are a bad idea?"

 

Perhaps you think we are all a bunch of clowns. I cannot argue against that particular point. For sure, cc.com is at times nothing more than a circus.

 

Matt

[billcoe]

edited out by bill

Edited December 8, 2009 by billcoe

[mattp]

Bill,

I agree that we've had some of this "discussion" many times before, with the same result. I've been trying to bring other aspects of the issue into this thread.

Matt

[kevbone]

Or Bill you can just not read any of it or not post? You dont have to topedo this thread into spray by posting clown shots.....

[mattp]

To the extent that there is any chance for meaningful discussion, let's retain the original subject headline.

[Kimmo]

You are ignorant and wrong in so many ways. You bring religion into a bolting discussion as a form of personal attack. I'm surprised they allow you to post here given the nature of some of your recent comments.

 

you bring nothing to this discussion. please stick to things you understand.

 

Now sit down.

[Raindawg]

Given that this topic is about Mr. Watts, and his impact on climbing....which is impressively overwhelming....the subject of the value, or lack thereof, of his "contributions" is utterly relevant. Partially as a result of what took place at Smith Rocks, some of us believe climbing took a very wrong turn. So, if all you want to do is forget history and pretend that everyone agrees, and those who don't should just shut the hell up, then this "Rock Climbing Forum" shouldn't be listed under "General DISCUSSION", but something more like "stifle the dissenters".

Tired of the same old what-not? It goes both ways, but ultimately everyone has a choice as to whether to post, not post or ignore the whole dang deal.