Sport vs Trad

[Peter_Puget]

[Bug]

This thread is too predictable.

The Hummer drivers are coming out in droves.

 

[Peter_Puget]

I call BS. I doubt you knew I was going to post an American Zombie promo.

 

And I traded in my H1 for an H2...I wont drive any vehicle that can't easily use the REI parking lot.

[olyclimber]

thank you for saving the earth

[Peter_Puget]

Thanks! Chicks dig the H2 too!

[G-spotter]

You obviously don't understand what I preach.

 

I dont think any of us really do.

 

I think you, of all people, understand exactly what I preach.

You just don't like its implications.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2009 by G-spotter

[Bug]

I call BS. I doubt you knew I was going to post an American Zombie promo.

 

And I traded in my H1 for an H2...I wont drive any vehicle that can't easily use the REI parking lot.

Well I didn't know it would be you specifically but you were on the short list.

Other names on the list were Turd, Scrooge, Rumr, and Frodo.

 

[Peter_Puget]

Somehow I think you are making it all up. American Zombie is a fun movie!

 

 

[JayB]

Dawg, I think you're making some erroneous assumptions.

 

Drederek's a good guy, I think his point is that just being alive has an impact, so if you really want to leave no trace you have to change that status. If leaving no trace is your highest value, that observation represents the logical endpoint.

 

Yup.

 

http://www.vhemt.org/

 

 

[Bug]

I'm surprised NetFlix hasn't sent it to me when I ordered The Sound of Music. They usually come up with the most interesting titles. Anything but what I order.

[Peter_Puget]

Climber now "alienated" by cc.com

 

 

[Bug]

He probably beleived the hype on the organic foods thread.

[Off_White]

While it is nice of you to engage this discussion in a meaningful way, we are now in spray.

Why pretend that you or the moderators here will give a different bolting perspective any respect? For example, let's say that someone truely believes thatany permanent man made product has no business in a wilderness area or National Park. While you are free to disagree, does this "radical" perspective automatically deserve to be denegrated and moved to spray?

Why not post your question in a new thread in the climbing forum?

This is an example of how this entire site and its moderators, and operator(s) have alienated a large sector of the climbing community.

I still find it useful for some purposes but find myself respecting it less and less.

 

Keith, I enjoyed meeting you at the spring picnic awhile back, and I'm generally congruent to any old timer climbing parent, but you're full of it in this quote. Go back and re-read the first post of this thread and then tell me with a straight face that this was anything but spray from the moment Don watched that clip from an old Star Trek and thought it was a perfect example of the sport/trad paradigm. Neither PP nor I moved this to spray, but to assert that this thread was any sort of serious discussion attempt is ludicrous.

 

What does Sport vs. Trad mean anyway? I clip bolts, but I also just did an alpine route that offered an average of two dodgy placements per 50 meters. Am I sport or trad? I recently did a friction climbing pitch with one bolt in 100', and in the same week climbed a 5.8 crack where I put in seven cams and nuts in the same distance. Am I sport or trad? Blake Herrington (or a dozen other posters here) clips bolts, but he'll kick your ass, Raindawgs ass, or my ass in onsite alpine adventure climbing. Is Blake sport or trad?

 

From the very title of the thread this is a bogus parsing of the world into us and them, the pure and chosen versus the infidel and unworthy. You think the moderator's respect for plurality has alienated a large sector of the climbing population? Hardly, it's more that the long chain allowed to abusive narrow minded ideologues generates a level of discord that inhibits the average person who considers themselves simply a climber, who engages in a variety of climbing activities, and doesn't want to be made fun of for clipping a bolt, using a bouldering pad, or roping up for some exposed 4th class. The normal, average, non-cc posting climber certainly doesn't consider themselves some silly partisan reenactor in a civil war that was over for most climbers decades ago. Wave your Confederate flag all you want, and make your assertions of inferiority about those gay sport climbing darkies like Blake or myself (does clipping bolts an eighth of the time make one an octaroon?), but the world sees that sort of thing more like a foaming psychotic ranting on the subway than any sort noble sermon.

 

Raindawg's disparaging rants do his cause nothing but disservice, and mostly invite only reaction, not conversation. This thread is no different than scores of others over the years.

[Bug]

While it is nice of you to engage this discussion in a meaningful way, we are now in spray.

Why pretend that you or the moderators here will give a different bolting perspective any respect? For example, let's say that someone truely believes thatany permanent man made product has no business in a wilderness area or National Park. While you are free to disagree, does this "radical" perspective automatically deserve to be denegrated and moved to spray?

Why not post your question in a new thread in the climbing forum?

This is an example of how this entire site and its moderators, and operator(s) have alienated a large sector of the climbing community.

I still find it useful for some purposes but find myself respecting it less and less.

 

Keith, I enjoyed meeting you at the spring picnic awhile back, and I'm generally congruent to any old timer climbing parent, but you're full of it in this quote. Go back and re-read the first post of this thread and then tell me with a straight face that this was anything but spray from the moment Don watched that clip from an old Star Trek and thought it was a perfect example of the sport/trad paradigm. Neither PP nor I moved this to spray, but to assert that this thread was any sort of serious discussion attempt is ludicrous.

 

What does Sport vs. Trad mean anyway? I clip bolts, but I also just did an alpine route that offered an average of two dodgy placements per 50 meters. Am I sport or trad? I recently did a friction climbing pitch with one bolt in 100', and in the same week climbed a 5.8 crack where I put in seven cams and nuts in the same distance. Am I sport or trad? Blake Herrington (or a dozen other posters here) clips bolts, but he'll kick your ass, Raindawgs ass, or my ass in onsite alpine adventure climbing. Is Blake sport or trad?

 

From the very title of the thread this is a bogus parsing of the world into us and them, the pure and chosen versus the infidel and unworthy. You think the moderator's respect for plurality has alienated a large sector of the climbing population? Hardly, it's more that the long chain allowed to abusive narrow minded ideologues generates a level of discord that inhibits the average person who considers themselves simply a climber, who engages in a variety of climbing activities, and doesn't want to be made fun of for clipping a bolt, using a bouldering pad, or roping up for some exposed 4th class. The normal, average, non-cc posting climber certainly doesn't consider themselves some silly partisan reenactor in a civil war that was over for most climbers decades ago. Wave your Confederate flag all you want, and make your assertions of inferiority about those gay sport climbing darkies like Blake or myself (does clipping bolts an eighth of the time make one an octaroon?), but the world sees that sort of thing more like a foaming psychotic ranting on the subway than any sort noble sermon.

 

Raindawg's disparaging rants do his cause nothing but disservice, and mostly invite only reaction, not conversation. This thread is no different than scores of others over the years.

You are a Sprad climber.

Raindawg is Raindawg. The conversation can go on without him.

But, as in most cases where a bolt or bolting is called into question, the bolting community, more than well represented on this site, come out in angry droves. You miss my point by asking me how I label you. I am simply pointing out that opening a discussion about bolting ethics on this site is no different than calling any and all bolters total assholes who should be shot on sight. I have put up several routes that I would not have been able to do without bolts. I regularly climb trad and sport routes. I have good friends who are totally into sport and those who are totally into trad. Yet, because I bring up the need to be more open to those who do not like the pace at which bolted routes are being developed, I am "labeled" a bolt hater? I think you secretly agree with me but don't want to be hated by Porter and his locker-room buddies.

[AlpineK]

I'd like to post on this very important thread.

 

This guy didn't leave any fixed bolts on route. He did leave himself though.

 

Then there's D1. It's a rad route. I don't remember fixed bolts, but there sure were a lot of fixed pins.

 

[img:center]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Fall05-LongsPeakCU_JPG_RSZ_md.jpg/300px-Fall05-LongsPeakCU_JPG_RSZ_md.jpg[/img]

 

I found a good article about Bob Kamps He was a hard core trad climber, but you know what, I found this in the article,

 

A traditional climber for most of his career, he turned to sport climbing in his 60s, and led 5.10 and 5.11 climbs well into his 70s. He was noted for his intelligence, charm, and sly wit.

 

I guess smart guys can climb both trad and sport

[Bug]

Sorry. Over-reacted.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Bug

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

If I clip a fixed piton or stuck piece of pro, is that sport climbing? What if I use chains for a belay anchor or to rap down a route (e.g. Beckey/Liberty Bell)? Does that make me a "sporto"? Is it unethical?

 

Never mind, I don't give a flying fuck.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

 

Edited July 30, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

Wrapped up.

[tvashtarkatena]

Bolt Nazi or Bolt Zombie?

 

You decide.

[Bug]

If I clip a fixed piton or stuck piece of pro, is that sport climbing? What if I use chains for a belay anchor or to rap down a route (e.g. Beckey/Liberty Bell)? Does that make me a "sporto"? Is it unethical?

 

Never mind, I don't give a flying fuck.

So go grid-bolt Index Mr "fucking" sound-bite

[Bug]

Bolt Nazi or Bolt Zombie?

 

You decide.

Hey.

Have you and 5K been secretly climbing together?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

If I clip a fixed piton or stuck piece of pro, is that sport climbing? What if I use chains for a belay anchor or to rap down a route (e.g. Beckey/Liberty Bell)? Does that make me a "sporto"? Is it unethical?

 

Never mind, I don't give a flying fuck.

So go grid-bolt Index Mr "fucking" sound-bite

 

What a joke. The "sound bites" I hear on this topic come from the broken record anti-bolt nazis.

 

[Bug]

If I clip a fixed piton or stuck piece of pro, is that sport climbing? What if I use chains for a belay anchor or to rap down a route (e.g. Beckey/Liberty Bell)? Does that make me a "sporto"? Is it unethical?

 

Never mind, I don't give a flying fuck.

So go grid-bolt Index Mr "fucking" sound-bite

 

What a joke. The "sound bites" I hear on this topic come from the broken record anti-bolt nazis.

Well for what it is worth, I am not "anti-bolt". But I do recognize the right to disagree with my bolt acceptance. I do not see it as any different than building cabins in the wilderness or allowing wheelchairs. It is counter to the ethic and principle that the wilderness bill promotes. Further, outside the wilderness there are many different ways that a rock can be appreciated. Those who would bolt every face in the valley or JT are the ones who are changing the landscape for their specific purposes regardless of the effects those changes might have on others now and in the future. The fact that other people find value in a pristine environment is taken as an affront and bolters become militant in their defense of the permanent change that will make their way the only available choice.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Bug

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Further, outside the wilderness there are many different ways that a rock can be appreciated.

 

True. OTOH, I would maintain that many bolted areas are places nobody would ever visit (up and close) to "appreciate the rock". Take the Far Side at exit 38 as one example. Raindawg's profile gives his location as "exit 39" - an interesting choice for a location to focus his anti-bolting feelings on (or just sport-climber mockery).