Motor Bikes at Vantage

[Good2Go]

 

Aren't you being just a touch harsh in your approach G-boy? The dirt bike and sledding communities are well aware of the negative perception many people have about their sports. (Full disclosure, I'm guilty on both counts.) And, the overwhelming majority of users want to (and do) comply with the law. For example, I sled in the legal portions of the Teanaway and Salmon la Sac valley pretty much weekly during the winter (mostly, but not always, to get access to bc skiing terrain) and I also ride my dirt bike frequently on legal singletrack in the same areas in the summer and I can't recall ever seeing anyone intentionally violating a wilderness boundary up there. Not saying it never happens, but it's definitely not the norm. I strongly suspect that the folks you saw were either unaware of the trespass (especially if there is a legal riding area immediately adjacent) or they are simply a-holes acting as individuals, not as representatives of the greater dirt bike community. You mention "taking responsibility to protect the area in which we climb." I can relate to that, but I don't agree that the right thing to do is to immediately dial 911. If you could hit them with a frisbee, couldn't you have at least made an attempt to talk with them? That's what I would have done. And, if you'd really like to make an impact, I suggest you spearhead an effort to put some signs up where the private land meets the wildlife refuge so that it's clear that the area is prohibited. (There are lots of existing trails in that basin that might lead a person to think it's ok to ride there.) I'm not saying it's your responsibility to do that, but it seems a whole lot more positive then encouraging the CC community to become a bunch of f'ing chivatos.

 

Hey Good to Go,

 

Thanks for the perspective and I appreciate your points. Allow me to respond to a few of your comments and questions.

 

1) I don't see how they could have been unaware of the trespass as there are in fact signs posted at the point where the road meets the trailhead where they came from.How are you so sure they came in from there and saw those signs? My understanding is that riding is legal on surrounding property. Could they not have come in from a different point? BTW - Your original post suggested that you didn't know whether riding in that canyon is illegal. Have you now confirmed that it is with the land manager (you mentioned you were going to try to contact him)? For the record, just because an area is designated as a wildlife refuge does not mean that it is illegal to ride dirt bikes there. Most of the area east of E-burg and N of I-90 all the way to the Columbia are designated as wildlife refuges (Colockum, Whiskey Dick, etc.), and dirt bike riding is legal there during most of the warmer months of the year.

 

2) As for speaking to them, they were racing by at full, loud speed about a football field away. Impossible to speak to them. So, they only went by once? BTW - I've noticed an existing network of trails in that basin as well as what looked like an old jeep road. Were they actually riding on those trails or were they roosting about willy-nilly? Be honest now

 

3) However, when done climbing for the day, I did drive down the road with the intent to speak with them and they had already left. That's when I saw the signs posted. Again, how do you know they saw the signs? My point was (and is) simply that it may have been an unintentional mistake, as opposed to an intentional disregard of the law, which is what your original post suggested. The law may draw no disctinction, but I believe it is relevant to this discussion.

 

4) Even if they were ignorant of the rules for whatever reason, that does not entitle them to do something as destructive as what they did. Right, but your suggested course of action implies that you want them to be punished (in addition to just stopping the alleged illegality). Wouldn't the appropriate response and measure of justice depend on their mindframe (e.g., guilty intent or not)? I'm not trying to suggest that the act (if illegal) is excusable, I'm merely suggesting that there may be a better way to address the situation, rather than just dialing 911. If your goal is to prevent this from happening again, then it seems to me more signage would be more effective than calling the authorities every time (because there are likely times when no chivatos will be there with cellys at the ready, like in the middle of summer).

 

5) So while I may be a little bit harsh, perhaps you will consider the possibility that you are being a little bit lenient. Not lenient, just practical. I guarantee you the govt'l entities over there are more likely to identify with the bikers than with us climbers. We are definitely not helping our cause If we go calling them up every weekend to report dirt biking that turns our to be legal.

 

6) I think more signage is a fine idea but the existing signage didn't work -- not sure why these particular riders would respond differently to MORE signage. Again, how come you are you so sure this was an intentional violation? Your original post sure didn't suggest such certainty. Perhaps that is up to the land use manager to determine, as is his job.

 

7) I don't know what f'ing chivatos are but if you want to perceive my post as encouraging the community to be that, you may do so.

 

What I want is for the Coulee not to have motor bikes tearing it up. I don't either, so long as it's illegal. (BTW - I wouldn't ride there even if it was legal, as a courtesy to the climbers. But that's just me.) If that makes me a chivato, then I will happily be one. I'm sure your high school vice principal would be very proud!

I think it's great that you're a member of the biking community who follows the rules, and I appreciate your perpective. But I disagree with you. I think I can live with that

[Good2Go]

7) I don't know what f'ing chivatos are but if you want to perceive my post as encouraging the community to be that, you may do so.

 

Me too.

 

chivato

 

I'm your huckleberry.

 

So, what everybody's been saying about you is true eh, Sobo? Which one is you in this picture?

http://www.juniorpoliceacademy.org/assets/images/Junior_Police_Academy_Homepage02.jpg I'm guessing the fat kid with glasses on the right (i.e., the cop's left hand man.)

[pope]

Hear, hear. The issue here is the bikes in the Coulee, nothing else.

 

The issue is treading lightly in the wilderness. If you participate in the destruction of our rock resources, then you don't have a moral leg to stand on. It's puzzling how one even hears the kid on the bike above the chorus of bolt-clippers yelling "Take!" and "Send it!" Not to mention the harmonic gurgling of the community bong against the percussive clatter of the Hilte.

[sobo]

7) I don't know what f'ing chivatos are but if you want to perceive my post as encouraging the community to be that, you may do so.

 

Me too.

 

chivato

 

I'm your huckleberry.

 

So, what everybody's been saying about you is true eh, Sobo? Which one is you in this picture?

http://www.juniorpoliceacademy.org/assets/images/Junior_Police_Academy_Homepage02.jpg I'm guessing the fat kid with glasses on the right (i.e., the cop's left hand man.)

 

First off, G2G, let me begin by stating quite emphatically that I never resorted to debasement and name-calling. That was you who fired that first round.

 

Secondly, you don't know me from Adam, and I really don't give a good goddamn what the fuck you or anyone else may or may not say about me. I am secure in my own skin.

 

And finally, PISS OFF!

[0lson]

Hear, hear. The issue here is the bikes in the Coulee, nothing else.

 

The issue is treading lightly in the wilderness. If you participate in the destruction of our rock resources, then you don't have a moral leg to stand on. It's puzzling how one even hears the kid on the bike above the chorus of bolt-clippers yelling "Take!" and "Send it!" Not to mention the harmonic gurgling of the community bong against the percussive clatter of the Hilte.

 

Apparently, you misread what you quoted. She didn't make a moral argument.

[LUCKY]

Last Year the military had drop zone practice right in echo basin complete with quads tear’n up the turf, that is where the new trails to the middle came from, no one seemed to get there panties in a bunch over that.

I heard the bikes, the noise was a little annoying but they did seem to stay on the beaten trail/road and the sand dune and they were not there all day, just a short time.

As I though about the people that would want to call 1-800 RAT, I though how in this cramped up world if we are not all going to stay at home playing video games and getting a fat ass, we ALL are going to have share the sand box…. even with those old men bicyclers wear’n camel toed day glow spandex, ride’n down the road clog’n up traffic when there is a rail to trail that my tax money paid for parallel to the road

The dirt bikers are risking getting a big ticket and they should ride in designated areas, but I would not be the one to rat them out …just not my style

 

[mike1]

Riding motorcycles in a wildlife refuge is not a gray area. It is absolutely, irrefutably, and simply, illegal and destructive to habitat. And we as climbers can choose, if we wish, to take responsiblity to protect the area in which we climb.

 

Hear, hear. The issue here is the bikes in the Coulee, nothing else.

I disagree. Maybe the issue should be that, but I think there's more to it. You can see it in the posts. The reality is... okay, my reality is that moto-cross bikes are loud and annoying whether they are within their rights to be on that land or not, unless I am the one riding. I hate it when a sled screams past me while I'm skiing leaving the smell of high octane fuel in my face for the next 20 minutes. But, I really love riding them when I get the chance. They are fun! I’ve ridden motocross bikes a few times in my life and that was a blast too! Obviously they shouldn't be riding their bikes where it's prohibited. But I think the heart of this thread is really that WE are just irritated that their noise infringes on what should be a peaceful outdoor experience. They could be policed into an area that they are allowed to ride on and still piss us off because of the noise. Learn the refuge boundaries, store the phone numbers in your cell, report land use violations when you witness them. Or, if they are on public land and within their rights - smile, deal with the noise or bolt somewhere... I mean climb somewhere else.

[marylou]

Hear, hear. The issue here is the bikes in the Coulee, nothing else.

 

The issue is treading lightly in the wilderness. If you participate in the destruction of our rock resources, then you don't have a moral leg to stand on. It's puzzling how one even hears the kid on the bike above the chorus of bolt-clippers yelling "Take!" and "Send it!" Not to mention the harmonic gurgling of the community bong against the percussive clatter of the Hilte.

 

Sounds to me like your issue should be directed at the land managers if you want a bolting ban in the area.

[marylou]

Obviously they shouldn't be riding their bikes where it's prohibited. But I think the heart of this thread is really that WE are just irritated that their noise infringes on what should be a peaceful outdoor experience. They could be policed into an area that they are allowed to ride on and still piss us off because of the noise. Learn the refuge boundaries, store the phone numbers in your cell, report land use violations when you witness them. Or, if they are on public land and within their rights - smile, deal with the noise or bolt somewhere... I mean climb somewhere else.

 

But the bikes being discussed in this thread ARE riding in an are off-limits to bikes. It's not ABOUT whether or not it's annoying to others--it's illegal.

[pope]

Obviously they shouldn't be riding their bikes where it's prohibited. But I think the heart of this thread is really that WE are just irritated that their noise infringes on what should be a peaceful outdoor experience. They could be policed into an area that they are allowed to ride on and still piss us off because of the noise. Learn the refuge boundaries, store the phone numbers in your cell, report land use violations when you witness them. Or, if they are on public land and within their rights - smile, deal with the noise or bolt somewhere... I mean climb somewhere else.

 

But the bikes being discussed in this thread ARE riding in an are off-limits to bikes. It's not ABOUT whether or not it's annoying to others--it's illegal.

 

Illegal? Oh my gosh! That never presented a problem for those who voiced support for the establishment and opposition to the removal of illegally placed bolts on Mt. Garfield. Nor did it present any moral hurdles for the large number of climbers who at least symbolically approved of the Garfield project by climbing it and posting trip reports here. Even the WCC missed (and continues to miss) their opportunity to organize an effort to erase the route, which of course would have been laughable given the activities of certain members in other wilderness areas.

[ivan]

Obviously they shouldn't be riding their bikes where it's prohibited. But I think the heart of this thread is really that WE are just irritated that their noise infringes on what should be a peaceful outdoor experience. They could be policed into an area that they are allowed to ride on and still piss us off because of the noise. Learn the refuge boundaries, store the phone numbers in your cell, report land use violations when you witness them. Or, if they are on public land and within their rights - smile, deal with the noise or bolt somewhere... I mean climb somewhere else.

 

But the bikes being discussed in this thread ARE riding in an are off-limits to bikes. It's not ABOUT whether or not it's annoying to others--it's illegal.

 

Illegal? Oh my gosh! That never presented a problem for those who voiced support for the establishment and opposition to the removal of illegally placed bolts on Mt. Garfield. Nor did it present any moral hurdles for the large number of climbers who at least symbolically approved of the Garfield project by climbing it and posting trip reports here. Even the WCC missed (and continues to miss) their opportunity to organize an effort to erase the route, which of course would have been laughable given the activities of certain members in other wilderness areas.

the bolts on IB aren't annoying people who are actually in the area using it though, unlike the bikers, nor having a 1/100 the effect on the actual environment - the only folks who seem to have their panties in a bunch over IB are the folks sittng around the house steamed by the IDEA of the bolts being there, NOT travelers in the area...

[marylou]

Pope, really, that's not the issue at hand here. I personally do not support the existence of IB for a number of reasons, but feel no need to be all indignant about its existence. BTW the land managers were considerably more concerned about the trail than about the route.

 

Still, it's about the dirt bikes at Vantage. Yes, there are climbers out there breaking laws and regs as well, but don't assume every climber is, or supports the lawlessness.

[pink]

Obviously they shouldn't be riding their bikes where it's prohibited. But I think the heart of this thread is really that WE are just irritated that their noise infringes on what should be a peaceful outdoor experience. They could be policed into an area that they are allowed to ride on and still piss us off because of the noise. Learn the refuge boundaries, store the phone numbers in your cell, report land use violations when you witness them. Or, if they are on public land and within their rights - smile, deal with the noise or bolt somewhere... I mean climb somewhere else.

 

But the bikes being discussed in this thread ARE riding in an are off-limits to bikes. It's not ABOUT whether or not it's annoying to others--it's illegal.

 

Illegal? Oh my gosh! That never presented a problem for those who voiced support for the establishment and opposition to the removal of illegally placed bolts on Mt. Garfield. Nor did it present any moral hurdles for the large number of climbers who at least symbolically approved of the Garfield project by climbing it and posting trip reports here. Even the WCC missed (and continues to miss) their opportunity to organize an effort to erase the route, which of course would have been laughable given the activities of certain members in other wilderness areas.

the bolts on IB aren't annoying people who are actually in the area using it though, unlike the bikers, nor having a 1/100 the effect on the actual environment - the only folks who seem to have their panties in a bunch over IB are the folks sittng around the house steamed by the IDEA of the bolts being there, NOT travelers in the area...

 

 

[mike1]

Retarded isn’t PC man... this thread is “challenged”

Somewhere there's a motor-cross forum trashing on all the climbers at vantage for drilling holes in the rock? Now that's retarded... or is it?

[pink]

that's what i'm sayin,

[marylou]

I was in the Coulee on Saturday and didn't see or hear any dirt bikes, however the lock has been cut off the gate, and there are car or truck tracks behind the gate. I have a pic of that if anyone needs evidence to share with land managers or the sheriff.

[fenderfour]

I heard them in the distance on Sunday, but I did not see them in the basin.

[billcoe]

Congrats.

 

Sounds like maybe one of you isn't a big pussy and just went over and had the conversation that should have taken place originally, instead of the massive internet spew and calling out of Scotland Yard, press releases, the Black helicopters and relentless, needless and ignorant off-topic and pointless repetitive accusations of bolting IB. Why is everything about "calling the authorities" all the time. You folks still expect your mommies and daddies to take care of you too when you're 40 years old?

 

That talk should have gone something like this: " Hey, come here kid "(waving kids over), "turn that shit off I got something to say". Then you tell them your position and they leave.

 

Simple.

[Dane]

Climbers have trashed more of the environment in the Coulee during the last 20 years than the tourists, military, locals, 4x4s, old I90 or dirt bikes have in the last 500.

 

We are a lot of things but as a user group we are not the best environmentalists.

[Paul_detrick]

Since when is the Coulee a wildlife refuge, its owned by the Department of Wildlife, which is ours,if your a tax payer but not a refuge. Most of the wildlife lives next to or in the ponds that are created by water runoff from near by fields. And on the cliffs that we climb on. Its a multi-use area. Climbing, hunting, hiking, biking,fishing, and whatever people want on there land, as long as they follow what the states agency that is taking care of it for us allows. They manage it for wildlife, theres just not much around with all the people. Like anywhere people visit to much.

[Raindawg]

Climbers have trashed more of the environment in the Coulee during the last 20 years than the tourists, military, locals, 4x4s, old I90 or dirt bikes have in the last 500.

 

We are a lot of things but as a user group we are not the best environmentalists.

 

Here, here!!!! What Dane said!!!

 

Climbers are not without fault. Take responsibility.

[Fairweather]

I was in the Coulee on Saturday and didn't see or hear any dirt bikes, however the lock has been cut off the gate, and there are car or truck tracks behind the gate. I have a pic of that if anyone needs evidence to share with land managers or the sheriff.

 

Oh, the irony.

[StevenSeagal]

Climbers have trashed more of the environment in the Coulee during the last 20 years than the tourists, military, locals, 4x4s, old I90 or dirt bikes have in the last 500.

 

We are a lot of things but as a user group we are not the best environmentalists.

 

Here, here!!!! What Dane said!!!

 

Climbers are not without fault. Take responsibility.

 

 

What, exactly, does this diversion have to do with whether anyone should act if they see dirt bikes in closed areas in the Coulee? So if I'm clipping bolts up at Sunshine- which is LEGAL- I have no basis for reporting ILLEGAL use of the premises that is causing ACTIVE destruction of the habitat?

 

So I suppose that if someone down below comes and starts a brush fire, or comes out with a dump truck full of toxic waste to drop off, I should ignore that, and instead use this great opportunity to look in the mirror and do some deep soul searching over the use of bolts for climbing...

 

I'm clear now, except for one thing: what if the dirt bikers also happen to be sport climbers just taking a break from their last send, you know, getting de-pumped before they get back over to the cliff and resume drilling?

[billcoe]

SS, anyway, they say dirt bikers are invariably trad practitioners.

 

Agree with your sediments and wonder now what's next? You can't talk to them about riding in an off limits place because the US is involved and in Iraq?

 

Uhhhh, OK

[StevenSeagal]

SS, anyway, they say dirt bikers are invariably trad practitioners.

 

Agree with your sediments and wonder now what's next? You can't talk to them about riding in an off limits place because the US is involved and in Iraq?

 

Uhhhh, OK

 

Well I still commit petty theft now and then. So if I see a store being robbed, who am I to pass judgement on the robber's actions, much less call the cops on him?