GPS Thread

[votostey]

Hi to everyone,

 

My name is Justin Votos, one of the missing Hood climbers last Monday. Thanks for everyones concern, it means a whole lot to Matt and I.

 

Anyway, I thought I would toss my two cents in. Trad_guy, you are absolutely correct, a gps could have gotten us back to the parking lot and spared us all this media drama. We found it exceedingly difficult to navigate with standard equipment(map, altimeter and compass, of which we had all three). Walking in a straight line became difficult, my altimeter was thrown by the pressure change and finding any reference points for correction was impossible. So for now on I will carry a unit just for these situations.

 

I'll for sure look at the eTrex H. Thanks.

 

 

 

 

[billcoe]

Hi Justin, thanks for posting. Yeah, when it gets vile and nasty out, it's almost unbelievable how the wind can drift you away and push you sideways and off course despite following a compass bearing.

 

Glad things worked out. I saw that your partner had posted on this thread about the experience. Link

 

 

Bigtree, Holy crap, I just saw the price for that Garmin with the topo: $559.99 !!!!

 

Damn thats heavy scratch! Especially if you only wind up with a 1/100,000 scale topo map.

 

It makes the Delorme, with 1/24,000 equivalent topos look like a bargain (despite the use of the last gen chips for satellite acquisition).

 

Link to Amazon page for the Delorme unit

[Bigtree]

Billcoe, the purchase rationale/mantra is as follows: a) its only a modest amount of money in the scheme of things; b) you only live once; and, c) owning one of these babies may prolong said life referenced in (b).

 

Re: map scales, I've loaded the 1:24,000 scale mapset of US national parks on my 60CSx via a separate micro SD chip when I'm playing in places like Rainier, Olympics and J-Tree. I presume that you would be able to do the same for the new Colorado unit.

 

Cheers.

[billcoe]

I saw that Garmin had the National parks on 1/24000 scale (but it costs $100 extra on top of what one is already paying for the unit). Furthermore, I rarely (cough*never*cough) get to those places any more. 99 percent of what I want it for is within 60 miles from town where the better topo resolution isn't available.

 

Have you had any success using the National Geographic maps with the Garmin? I understand that after wandering all over hell and back, you can then upload your trip to those NG 1/24000 maps to at least better see where you've been. I don't know if I need more than that. I mean, it might be nice to have great topo resolution on the unit so as to not walk over cliff, but since that's never happened and I never needed a GPS for that kind of thing before and just used my eyeballs: I don't even know if I need the better maps on the unit like the Delorme has.

 

It looks like Garmin put in the national park 1/24000 topo software in them. Which does me no good at all. Looking at paying extra for this piece of sh*t Garmin software looks out of the question: Read some of these reviews to see what you are missing. Reviews are all over the board. GArmin topo software for GPS unit link

 

Here's a dude who blogs about the Delorme unit, check out these Geotagger screen shots he posted. Chads blog Takes a pic (separate camera) and it gets linked to the topo position you mark.

 

 

 

It looks like the Garmin units look to have Noaa maps separate, while this Delorme thing comes with them. I use to sail, and might find myself once again doing that if I get an injury climbing.

 

Still looking....but as anyone who has ridden in my car will tell you, I have the paper topo books that Delorme makes for Washington and Oregon in there all the time, tucked behind the passenger seat (pretty crude resolution and hard to see with my old eyes) however, they have been quite helpful. They've been doing topos a for a long time. Here's a link to dudes talkin about the Delorme, they are soliciting advice on updating and correcting errors their maps and their units as well. Which I find reassuring.

 

Delorme online forum

 

It would be cool to get some of these units and try them out first. Delorme has a 30 day trial with a return for full refund policy....but I'll probably still just wait the month and see what the Colorado units have when they come out. Like you say, it isn't about the money. The Colorado looks to have a much larger screen, and thats something I could really use as I never take reading glasses to the woods and wouldn't want to start now.

 

 

 

Thanks for all the advice.

[blurpy]

When I bought my Garmin I thought I would eventually cough up for the maps, but in nearly two years have never found I missed them. A friend has them in his (with a largish screen) but they really are not that useful as you can't see enough of the map at high-res to do you any good. Better off with a paper map marked with northings and eastings.

 

So I have been using the National Geographic software, printing maps of areas I need (and putting them in plastic, sometimes condensation will still get them), and uploading breadcrumbs from the GPS to see where I went. The quads don't have newer trails, so it is great for updating your map.

 

Following is a route I uploaded from the unit, which is nice to have. I think the USGS quads are better than delorme anyway, topographically speaking, even if some haven't been updated in over 30 years.

 

oh, btw, someone said above that you don't need lithium batteries. I'm telling you that you do, and unless you like changing batteries every 2-4 hours (always fun in a storm with mitts on), pay extra.

 

also, don't rely on gps for an accurate accounting of distance traveled. it is seldom reliable, sometimes more sometimes less in my experience, and you are better off uploading the route and recalculating distance with the map software later.

 

 

 

[Dechristo]

ENELON rechargeable lithium batteries, which are light and function well in cold.

 

this is why i mention lithium batteries above

 

Oh bullshit.

 

You just like the word "lithium".

[luvshaker]

Justin,

 

Like everyone, glad you made it out safe. I also appreciate your

positive attitude about the whole thing. There used to be a time when getting slightly lost was fun and exciting.

Guess we're not allowed to do that anymore.

When I was climbing pre-GPS I used an altimeter often in storms. There is a formula you can use that takes a

little guesswork, but you can get it pretty close with some experience. Try watching what different storms do to

pressure around you home, then make the adjustment yourself. The amount an altimeter rises (ft/meters) with dropping

pressure is less then you might think (If I tried to tell you the formuls now I'd get it wrong). Search the web, or it might

even be mentioned in Freedom of the Hills.

I still won't climb with out a altimeter.

 

Lee

[billcoe]

Thanks Blurpe, that looks awesome - you must have been ass deep to snow. I tried the other side of the ditch @ 2weeks ago and didn't get the car higher than 1200' before I got it stuck and all tore up.

 

Luvshaker, totally agree, and a compass with that altimeter for sure. In fact, if marginal weather is possible, it wouldn't hurt if every one in a party had one. I have one of the new school watch altimeters and it was cheap and surprisingly fairly accurate. I wish the watch had the compass too, some of them do. Then I'd have it all the time. Kind of like, I rarely get stuck out without a headlamp any more (unlike when I was young and headlamps were serious affairs) as they are so easy to stuff one of the lil guys in your pocket. Good stuff!

[sweatinoutliquor]

Just a thought, but the best GPS is the one that you are willing to take with you... I've got one of those garmin rino's with the built in radios... Thought I would use the radio feature all the time... Right... Probably only once. Anyway, the sucker seems to be heavier than it needs to be, and if I had to do it again I think I'd go for the smallest/lightest Garmin I could find (for example, the geko?). If it's small enough you can keep in in a pocket inside all that clothing next to where it's warm. Also, all that mapping software can be handy (especially for finding small roads), but really, you can program everything important right onto it in advance (using google earth!). I do admit that the ones with color screens are sweet though. Especially if you are really fired up about using the TOPO software.

[billcoe]

Light weight and ease of use sound important. Garmin seems to have the ease of use down. It really sounds like you can easily get the Garmin to download your route onto the National Geographic 1/24000 topos. So before the trip, you upload the 1/100,000 Garmin map and comeback and download your waypoints onto a computer with NG topos.

 

It would be nice to have the actual scanned USFS quad topos and not have to do this rigamorole, but it sounds like you can't read them on the unit anyway....and it doesn't sound like a lot of trouble....

 

Hmmmmmmmmm

[Frikadeller]

Just a thought, but the best GPS is the one that you are willing to take with you... I've got one of those garmin rino's with the built in radios... Thought I would use the radio feature all the time... Right... Probably only once. Anyway, the sucker seems to be heavier than it needs to be, and if I had to do it again I think I'd go for the smallest/lightest Garmin I could find (for example, the geko?). If it's small enough you can keep in in a pocket inside all that clothing next to where it's warm. Also, all that mapping software can be handy (especially for finding small roads), but really, you can program everything important right onto it in advance (using google earth!). I do admit that the ones with color screens are sweet though. Especially if you are really fired up about using the TOPO software.

 

My sentiments exactly. I have the same GPS as you, and thought the same thing about the radio. I never use the radio, and well, could do without it as well. But for some reason, I usually always carry the GPS, even if I hardly ever use it. I guess it is a security blanket of sorts. A heavy one at that.

 

 

[jmace]

I'd like to hear some opinions on the Canadian topo system.

 

I use a G-Spotter or a Jordop,they run on a casual supply of kind..easliy rechargable in the field.

[mike1]

I picked up a Magellan Sport Trek a few years back. Base model GPS no bells and whistles. Just played with it this weekend locating a cave up in the snow around Saint Helens. It picks up and maintains GPS in trees very well and is very easy to operate. We stored a point on the road and x-countried to the cave then compassed back to GPS point on road to within 10 feet in 1/4 mile. I throw a couple energizer lithium AA's in it and the unit barely weighs anything. EXTREMELY HAPPY with it! I highly recommend it unless you want all those maps and stuff. I just figure I’m carrying maps and a compass anyway so I wanted my GPS to be as small and light as possible, hence the lack of bells, whistles and horns...

[billcoe]

Interesting Mikester. Sounds like you weren't in heavy cover. One of the areas I head is original old growth, close growing to the point where everything except for a few Huckleberrys and Hemlocks are gone: and I want good topos too, thats the point for me, to find and climb on things which have not yet been found.

 

The Garmin Colorados came out just today, and REI has an exclusive on the 400t...for now.

 

cough* $599, cough* cough* for the 400t (for topo). I don't see how it's better than the Delorme though. Lets see, USFS quad map... $ 6.99 or something like that, so $599 divided by that = hmmm lot O' paper Topo maps.

[mike1]

It was a mixed forest, mostly 50' and snow covered but a few OG's, fairly thick though we could see sky. I was on a rescue team when I picked it up and after talking to other team members the Magellan's seemed to maintain in trees better than Garmins. Of course that was years ago so I’m sure they all are better now. I use the MapTech Terrain Navigator to plot water proof maps at home for trips. Much nicer to have a custom map of exactly where you’re going and you can plot UTM or Lat. Long grids or what ever. Paper maps and compass will never run out of batteries.

[tokyobob]

I used a magellan gold for five years, but switched to a garmin venture hc. The magellan was too big and heavy compared to the Garmin. I also like the colored screen of the garmin, it's much easier to read than the black/grey screens. The battery life has been excellent, fast acquisition, and topo downloads are quick. I wish I had coughed up a few extra bucks and purchased the model with the SD card. I still carry a silva ranger and 7.5 quad.

[wannabe]

Garmin Etrex

Map

Compass

 

I have used this software and a homebrew data cable with the Etrex with good results:

USAPhotoMaps (free)

Homebrew data cable (cheap)

 

Easy GPS is a free program that can load/download your waypoint data from your computer hard drive.

 

I was inspired to get a GPS last winter since I do not have a dog named velvet or a tauntaun and wanted to be sure I could make it back to the lodge bar in a white-out using my own waypoints.

 

Etrex is fine with a clear sky view, but not so good in the forest. Wish they had the H model last year.

 

 

[trad_guy]

Hello billcoe-

I have watched this thread with interest.

 

You are right to be concerned about the cost of many GPS models.

 

My earlier post(s) suggested the new $99.00 Garmin eTrex-H (H stands for high sensitivity antenna), a $6.00 USGS 1:24,000 USGS Quad map (or personal computer generated equal) and a $30.00 Suunto M3D declination adjustable base plate compass and the skills to use them together.

 

I am talking about using the best GPS for mountaineering and backcountry travel. Google this phrase to read more. I am not talking about using the GPS for other uses.

 

I am writing about using the map, compass and GPS together. Google this phrase to read more.

 

Here is a brief explanation:

http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/FAQ_MapCompassGPS_Together.htm

 

Batteries have been a concern of some on this thread. I can find no scientific advantage to using expensive lithium batteries in a GPS other than a longer shelf life. Care must be taken with some lithium batteries because the may produce too much voltage and shut down the GPS. Garmin suggests using rechargeable AA batteries, changing out batteries every day of use.

 

Keep extra batteries warm if you are doing a track, otherwise, keep the GPS turned off in your pocket unless taking a waypoint or checking a True base plate compass bearing.

 

Expensive GPS receivers with un-necessary electronic compasses and altimeters use more battery power. The eTrex-H can track all day on two AA batteries with the WAAS feature turned off. WAAS works marginally in the PNW.

--trad_guy

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2008 by trad_guy

[Cobra_Commander]

garmin geko, for the win.

[olyclimber]

garmin foretrex 101 for great justice

[Bergsteiger78]

Expensive GPS receivers with un-necessary electronic compasses and altimeters use more battery power. The eTrex-H can track all day on two AA batteries with the WAAS feature turned off. WAAS works marginally in the PNW.

--trad_guy

 

Hi to all, a mountaineer from Mendoza Argentina.

 

I read the site you mention Link prior to find this thread,

 

I'm mountaineer and I'm also looking for a good and practical GPS, my doubt was with the Extrex Vista HCX against the Vista H... and I think I will preffer this HCX to the cheaper and more practical versions adviced at that site as the Vista H or the Legend.

 

My reasons:

 

While "traditionalmountaineering.org's" most important argument against the barometer and Electronic compass built-in in a gps is "battery life", I see that the Garmin HCX has a battery life of 25 hours, and the "recommended" Etrex H has only 17 hours, even with his harder-to-see greay LCD against the color and bigger LCD of the HCX. So no doubt, I preffer the fancy colors and bigger screen with a longer battery life, no doubt about this point.

 

I understand that the electronic compass can be turned off if not used, so it wouldn't waste my batteries if I don't use it.

 

No doubt about size and weight because both have the same weight and same case.

 

At the mentioned site the writer makes another point that I fail to understand, may be the problem is my english as second language (really. not pun intended)

 

the Site says: We did not need a compass on this adventure as the GPS pointer became active after just a few steps.

 

I think to read in the Etrex Vista HCX specs that this compass is static, it doesn't need movement to work, so in this case another point against electronic compasses can be dismissed.

 

I know that the price difference is a lot, but for people that can afford a Vista HCX I don't see any advantage adquiring a Vista H besides the bucks you are saving. So extra dollars aside, I preffer to have in the mountain a Vista HCX than a Vista H. That's my opinion.

 

Any words?

 

[trad_guy]

Hello Bergsteiger!

You have made some very good observations. I will revise my web page to bring it up to date with the new Garmin Models.

 

Battery life has changed allot in a few years. The Legend HC and the Vista HC offer 25 hours on two new AA batteries. The Venture HC and Summit HC offer only 14 hours. (Garmin's warranty does not cover use of Lithium batteries, I confirmed today.)

 

The data cord connections are now important. All these models have USB connectors, important if your new computer (lap top) does not have an RS-232 port. (You can get an adaptor for $60 and drivers from Garmin to use the older style RS-232 cords with USB, even now for the Vista OS.)

 

Paying more for a barometric altimeter and for an electronic compass does not make sense. Garmin suggests you correct for barometric changes by adjusting to the geographic altitude given by the satellites. The electronic compass turns off when your begin moving and follows the satellites. (The pointer takes over.)Using them in a GPS is a throwback to the days of Selective Availability when the US DOD purposely degraded the signal. SA degradation ended in 2001 as I recall. The Satellite driven altitude and direction are very accurate today. You can pay more but you have more functions to deal with.

 

The Garmin website has a world wide tool for comparisons among their models.

 

I like the eTrex-H because I already have an RS 232 cable and I know the functions very well. I do not want a 1:100,000 map for backcountry. I make my own 8.5 x 11, color 1:24,000 UTM grid topo maps with the $99 National Geographic Topo program. The RS 232 cable is $35 extra unless you already have one.

 

If I might need to connect to my lap top's USB, I would buy an eTrex Venture-HC for $182, including the USB cable. It does not have the redundant barometric altimeter or the (accurate to 5 degrees only) electronic compass. Yes, the battery life is 14 hours, but I save over $100. I carry two extra batteries in any case.

 

(Note that it is not necessary to have the GPS turned on all of the time.)

 

What are you climbing down there, Herr Bergsteiger?

--Herr trad_guy

 

Edited January 30, 2008 by trad_guy

[giza]

I'd like to hear some opinions on the Canadian topo system.

 

Feck,

 

If you're referring to the Canadian topo maps for the Garmin, they're based on 1:50,000 NTS maps, which sadly are becoming obsolete. If you're a geography whore like me then you probably have a stack of these maps stored away somewhere. I used to use them for choosing prime locations for picking pine mushrooms.

 

I've used the Garmin Canada topo data for wildlife surveys and have relied on an accurate representation of mainline logging roads, waterbodies, and contours to show up where they should to aid in navigation. It's been useful for my purposes.

 

Send me an email if you want more info or some sample data.

 

cloudraker@hotmail.com

[Bergsteiger78]

Hey trad-guy, thanks for the answer, you made excellent points. Very interesting what you say about the SA degradation, if the satellite altitude is so precise nowadays, using a barometer can give you more troubles than satisfactions, calibrating it correctly can be pretty problematic, and more in this zones where I hung up, rarely you have a sign or are at a place where you know the altitude in order to calibrate it. So you are total right there. Thinking about it it's true that the Venture HC is a pretty complete option at a very tempting price, but for me battery life is really important, and more if you are away for 10 or 15 days without access to any power, the ammount of batteries could increase to unconfortable levels to carry and protect from the cold etc., in this sense the Venture HCx appears to be the best choice, it costs around 85 to 75 dollars more, but you have 25 hours of battery life, and more tracks and waypoints plus a SD memory slot, without the barometer and compass.

 

It's true, a compass with a 5º degree accuracy is obsolete, if making a triangulation with my cartographic compass takes some time I can't imagine where could you end up using the gps's electronic compass, and more in a chart where you need something flat to use over the map. So I guess that the only use of this gps's electronic compass is to just know where the north is and walk... 5º is just to much for a precise location. About the barometer I'm not so sure if it's so obsolete, I will tell you my experience if I buy a gps with one, to know the atmospheric pressure can be useful even though you don't use it as an altimeter, mostly because of weather changes... but I'm guessing about the true practical use of this, will tell you if I gain some experience in the field.

 

Kein Herr for me lol, I'm only a pal member of the Club Andinista de Mendoza, who loves the mountains around and loves to go to the Zone of the Cordón del Plata near the Aconcagua. By the way, if any of you is coming I would be glad to be of any help.

[rbw1966]

A garmin rep told me lithium batteries, fresh out of the pack, can have an initial electical spike that can fry the eTrex models. He said they specifically recommend against using lithium batteries. Just what I was told, YMMV.

 

Just a word of caution.