Ken Nichols convicted and fined for bolt chopping

[olyclimber]

Then why would you participate in such a debate? Don't you lose just by entering it?

 

I respectfully and completely disagree. It is a valid point. Unless you're a complete troll, if you have risen above the "disrespectful debate" as he seems to have claimed to have done, then what does he have to be ashamed of in associating himself with.....himself? If you're truly ashamed of participating or associating with those who participate, then stop. He comes off no more respectable than the people he criticizes. His posts (like anyones here) are his sole property. What does he have to be afraid of? That someone will recognize that he posted and then some "disrespectful" person posted some crap after that? Does he actually fear being associated with this board? Then why does he continue to log on? It isn't necessarily a case of cowardice...it seems to me that it is a question of self respect. Why continue to contribute a conversation of people you have no respect for if you value your own time?

Claiming to post in an authoritative manner does carry some personal responsibility. Otherwise, you're not that authoritative, are you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pope]

 

BTW-it now clear you are not completely opposed to bolts, but definitely opposed to grid bolting. I can tell you it hasn't been clear in the past and the way you have come across your attitude and my interpetation of your stance was that you were completely opposed to bolting of any kind.

 

You stole the words out of my mouth. I include Don in that statement as well.

 

As far as the rest of it goes, there would be no routes on El Cap or Monkey Face without bolts. None. Monkey Face West FAce is 4 pitches. 3 are fully bolted, they were done on lead, with a hand drill. It really is a good route - which could have been 1 pitch ending at a rap anchor though.

 

It was put up in the 60's.

 

I see things like that and do not see a huge gap (although I agree that there is one) between a typical sport route at Smith.

 

How many routes on glacier point would exist without bolts? None of the great ones which cruise to the Oasis, including the one Chouinard put up: Coonyard.

 

So the real question is how to define style, what is really worthwhile, what is not. I do not think anybody here would be drilling on Pope about the single bolt, except it seems (until now) inconsistent with what he has been saying all along.

 

When we see something like Dishman, we recognize obvious shit, but after that - it is a small step here or there to a true pure crack. Obviously, many of us see that bolt on Popes route as a precondition for many routes to exist.

 

If a person like John Bachar were to do a FA as a near free solo, dragging a rope along, and then tell the rest of us you will die if you cannot free solo 5.11, does that not kind of screw everybody else? Should a first ascentionist consider others as well?

 

PS, Pope, I congratulate you for doing what I (my opinion only here, and all of this is only OUR opinions, including yours) consider the right thing. I once retro-added a bolt (3/8" hand drilled) to the crux near the top of a 5.6/5.7 route I had done when it was suggested that many aspiring leaders would be trying it die to the grade, but that a full pitch of shit placements was a time bomb waiting for some one to blow it and auger in as their pieces ripped.

 

Nice post Bill. You're easily the most articulate and reasonable fellow in this conversation (next to Dwayner and me). I'm not sure why anybody would believe I'm opposed to bolting. I've been very careful to criticize rap bolting, sport climbing, grid bolting, bolting next to cracks, bolting in wilderness areas, etc. I've also quite frequently argued that a commitment to ground-up ethics would eliminate many of the problems we see with excessive bolting. I've discussed routes that employ bolts that I feel improve the climbing experience.

 

I'm guessing that participants in this conversation already know I'm not completely anti-bolt, it's just fun to believe you've caught Pope in some kind of hypocrisy. And then you can go back to enjoying your sport climbs. What's particularly disturbing is how many of you, who supposedly recognize Dishman and Exit 38 as being shitholes, who agree that Infinite Bliss never should have been drilled in a wilderness area, will actually defend this shit when somebody suggests doing something about it. Or when somebody does publicly chop a retro-bolted trad line like Dan's Dreadful Direct, it's amazing how much grief they receive. How did we get to this point?

[pope]

Then why would you participate in such a debate? Don't you lose just by entering it?

 

I respectfully and completely disagree. It is a valid point. Unless you're a complete troll, if you have risen above the "disrespectful debate" as he seems to have claimed to have done, then what does he have to be ashamed of in associating himself with.....himself? If you're truly ashamed of participating or associating with those who participate, then stop. He comes off no more respectable than the people he criticizes. His posts (like anyones here) are his sole property. What does he have to be afraid of? That someone will recognize that he posted and then some "disrespectful" person posted some crap after that? Does he actually fear being associated with this board? Then why does he continue to log on? It isn't necessarily a case of cowardice...it seems to me that it is a question of self respect. Why continue to contribute a conversation of people you have no respect for if you value your own time?

Claiming to post in an authoritative manner does carry some personal responsibility. Otherwise, you're not that authoritative, are you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure who you're talking about here. Anybody wanna know my name just send me a PM.

[olyclimber]

You. What was your name again?

[Fairweather]

Matt brings up this subject regularly and predictably when he feels he has been slighted - even though he posts links to his full name in his bio and promotes his vision of wilderness ethics (many with which I agree, some with which I do not) on this very site. When I first began posting here, it was under my full name - first and last. Then I made the mistake of expressing unpopular political beliefs... and began getting nasty emails. Not PM's - but emails at my personal address. I immediately became "Fairweather" and pulled all personal links, not necessarily because I feared for my physical safety, but because if someone wanted to, they could intimidate or embarrass family members, coworkers, and generally disrupt the flow of my daily life. Who needs that shit just because they wanted to engage in discussion? IMO, the debate is actually better and more open when faces and names are shared only with a chosen few.

 

Disclaimer: I am in no way participating in the great bolt debate here. As a bona fide slogger, I am not qualified to do so.

[olyclimber]

Well, I'm actually not a proponent of required "real name" posting either, but this is what I find strange:

 

I'd rather not have my real name appear in conjunction with all of the snotty, juvenile stuff (like that which Dwayner just posted), just in case somebody respectable happens to be reading this.

 

What does this have to do with getting threats from people at work, etc? Seems like a "holier than thou" statement to me.

 

In the end, while I think debating things (such as bolting or not bolting) can be useful, but because of the the characters and egos involved (sure...maybe on both sides of the fence, eh?), this board and this thread in particular never seems to actually achieve any meaningful discourse....like a bunch of people shouting into an empty room. Sometimes it does seem that is intentional, and a smarter person could "stay above it" by just not participating when it gets to that point.

 

I'll take my own advice and respect myself enough to extract myself from this particular conversation. Night F!

 

 

[mattp]

I don't know if it is a matter of cowardice or just what it is that drives people to make condescending and derisive posts under a pseudonym while protecting their anonymity. Many of us know who some of these more acerbic posters are but the three who are here and now defending their behavior have at various times said "OK. You know my name and now the issue is resolved." Then they go back to their anonymous attack, sometimes directly personal, while consistently bristling when somebody mentions their real name or mentions that their real name is absent from regular discussion here.

 

This idea that they can disclose their actual name on one page in one thread a year and they they are not hiding their identity the other thousand posts a month is little more than a dodge. If they truly feared harassment, they would fear that the would-be harasser will find their identity if it is disclosed once a year because somebody who is motivated to target them may spend a few minutes looking for that information. If they want to carry on like a jerk, however, without a casual or infrequent visitor to the board knowing who they are, this habit of admitting their identity once a year and then protecting their anonymity the rest of the time works very well.

 

By the way, Fairweather, he may have sent you an e-mail, but did my liberal friend you so despise actually physically threaten you or call you at work? You still complain about him periodically, but I have not seen you complain about anybody else harassing you. Was there somebody else? The same guy who called me and some others at work, perhaps? Yes, it happens, but the way to avoid it is not to disclose your identity only once a year but to avoid drawing so much attention to yourself in the first place.

 

And yes, Joseph has been at times extremely caustic but where somebody has responded in a reasonable manner he has replied that he is simply stating his beliefs and he is vehement about them but he has recognized that the other guy has a right to their opinion.

[kevbone]

 

And yes, Joseph has been at times extremely caustic but where somebody has responded in a reasonable manner he has replied in a manner that indicated he is simply stating his beliefs and he is vehement about them but which recognizes that the other guy has a right to their opinion.

 

I know JH personally and I do enjoy having discussions with him about controversial topics. Joseph does know how to express himself in the written word.

[hawkeye69]

Regarding JayB's question: there are two aspects of sport climbing that make it considerably differnt than traditional slab climbing. First, sport climbs are always established on rappel (by definition). ANYBODY can "pioneer" such a route. Zero commitment, zero balls, zero skill, zero judgement required. Stopping to place a bolt is done on the way down by locking off the rope. There is complete safety. There is zero adventure. Often the bolts (being so easy to place) are placed way too close together. Often the climbs (being so easy to establish) are squeezed way too close together.

 

Now, after the first ascent, once a line of bolts exists (on a sport climb or on a traditional slab climb), is there a difference? Generally yes (but not always). Because the bolts on sport climbs tend to be so close together you CAN often aid from one bolt to the next, or at the very least, you can climb completely out of control, throwing yourself at each move (or sequence of two moves) between bolts as though it were a bouldering problem. Great fun! But if you take that approach on most traditional slab climbs, you're going to get spanked. Traditional slab climbing requires you honestly to be able to handle the climb's difficulties (or deal with huge falls). So, even after the route is established, there is an extremely important difference in the two approaches.

 

i agree with everything you said here pope. having learned in the 70's at a granite slab area, that was where i cut my teeth. back then we didnt have R/X ratings and it was kind of strange to see in modern guides many of the routes i put up with those R/X ratings. back then we just kind of assumed that was climbing. i climbed myself into many places where death was a real possibility, such is the folly of youth, but that was how it was done. not sprayin here thats just how it was.

 

however, i also rapp bolted when that got all started too. the importance to me is realizing that they can coexist. sure its tough, but there are places where they do.

 

the fine line i called you on earlier was placing a bolt for future climbers. i have first hand experience with that from 20 years ago. having received crap from climbers with lesser experience about runout routes, i put up a moderate sport route and conciously placed more bolts than i would have normally. to me, rapping and drilling is a different beast altogether and when one chooses to do so, they have an obligation to make it safe (at least i think so). because compared to ground-up FA's its cheating. (but its damn fun and i like it too).

 

on this particular route one of america's greatest most heralded hard men took offense and yanked the first bolt on that route. (frequently the first bolt is very important but you all know that cuz it aint falling that hurts you its the ground). i didnt really give a sh&&, but in discussions with this guy his die hard traditional (god i hate that word) stance was that you should only place a bolt for yourself, not for others.

 

i tend to agree with him for traditional (that word sucks) ground up routes.

 

now many of these routes may not be for the masses. but its all fair. its fair cuz if you start not knowing whats up there on the FA then its a level playing field. in fact, its damn tuff for the FA team cuz they are casting off into the unknown, while the parties to follow will be told explicitly, via the internet and guidebooks what the hell is up there and whether you can die or not. at least thats my take on the whole thing.

 

but there is that fine line of deciding to add bolts for future climbers. thats what you were saying you did on some route you were talking about earlier up thread before we got sidetracked on whose mama was doin who and whether we ought to post our real names. when you conciously decide to add a bolt for future climbers, you enter a mind set closer to sport climbing than the minimum impact philosophy of "traditional" (did i say i hate that word?) ground up ascents.

 

personally, i think its all good. i hate the idea of climbing being sanitized so that everything is safe. i also hate the idea that there is only one right way to climb. and god knows, when most of runout routes were put up, many of us had no idea how popular climbing would be, and that the rock resource that is finite would be so "used".

 

sport climbing has allowed all sorts of choss piles to be climbable in a safe fashion. i think thats predominantly a good thing and yet i do believe that not all rock needs to be climbed.

 

i am glad that there are guys like you out there bitchin about this as a reminder to to those who learned as sport climbers first. just to remind climbers that there is a different way. but your "all or none" posts do get a little tiring. alas, without the likes of you we might all be a touchy-feely bunch with nothing else to do but pat each other on the butts when a good tr is posted....

[billcoe]

Well spoken hawkeye. On the "Once of Americas most hearded hard man" comment, if that was Bachar, one of the purest of the pure, he's currently asking which powerdrill is the best to buy.

 

Times change.

 

I like the idea of balance. I climb on bolts, but I prefer cracks and the mental challenge they provide, more like playing chess, where you have to think of the 4 things you need to be paying attention to 4 moves ahead, as opposed to the follow the chalk and tick marks of common sport routes, where you are only looking at what are the next 4 moves to the next bolt are.

 

I understand why people like that game too. Elaine, for instance, is selling her trad gear right now over on another thread so she can focus on only sport climbing. This is something she is defining for herself. It may not be for you, certainly not for me, but it is what she has clearly chosen. I chose to stay off of ice and mountains when my kids were born. It's not what I'm telling you to do, but what I chose to do.

 

I actually agree with both Pope and Don that the gym system currently feeding the "sport" (and I hate that word) is responsible for over feeding incompetents into it. There are problems with that issue. I can only hope that at some point, people will realize that this game really is not safe like they have been led to believe, and they get out of it to go do something else.

 

However, much of my fear, that overcrowding will cause regulations which are onerous or just closures, has not come to pass at places where I thought they would: Smith Rocks for instance. In fact, the accommodations which the "authorities" (I hate that word too) have enacted with the help of local and regular climbers have been very reasonable and helpful in many ways.

 

For instance, in the 70's, we walked right up the loose choss directly to Cinnamon Slab from the river. When done by even a few folks, this caused massive erosion issues and was difficult to walk on as well. Now there are nice trails. After all the development there, I do not see Smith Rocks as an environmental disaster like Pope and Dwayner say it is, with all the new bolts, trails, parking lots, bathrooms and people. It's a park for Gods sake, and people like to get out and enjoy parks. They have dealt with that massive influx of people quite competently. Somehow Don thinks that if you can stop the bolts that whole parade will (and should) stop. That is his opinion, one I do not share. I do not want all the bolts to be pulled from Monkey Face - I've climbed all the classics (East, West, SW, Pioneer and North Face) to the top many times and love them all.

 

In those days you never saw a soul there, sure, now there are more people, massively so. Interesting that today you can often still walk right up to a classic crack like Moonshine and there's no one on it, they are crowding the bolted lines. And as there are more bolted routes every month, like some of the sweet lines Ryan Lawson is tossing bolts into, these folks are getting distributed over a wider area.

 

So somehow there is stasis and accommodation: things are working. Not the way I'd like to see in an ideal world, but it's sorting itself out.

 

Somehow, like Hawkeye is saying: the balance, which is to be desired, is achieved. Especially since you can't get the gyms to stop pumping these newcomers out. Frankly, I like clipping the bolts as well, as I like all kinds of climbing.

 

I don't want Smith to change to reflect my thoughts. I do tend to climb elsewhere, where there are no or few folks, but enjoy Smith the few times I do go there.

 

But thats my opinion anyway, and last post on this thread. I think that as humans, we should try to find balance in our lives, I hope Pope and Dwayner at least read this part if nothing else, because it was something which clearly was lacking in Ken Nichols life.

 

Regards to all:

 

Bill

[RuMR]

As you know, I have some issues with the basic premise of these bait and bash ethics threads, and I agree with anybody who says "it goes both ways" and "Pope and Dwayner have some valid points" but I don't think anybody - not even richardnoggin - has been as deliberately inflammatory as you and your pal Pope.

 

So, Dwayner and pope are responsible for being deliberately inflammatory....I think the topic of bolts lends itself to argument and passionate opinions on all sides; especially because if some of us had our way, some of your "fun" might be curtailed. But let's take a look at some of the "civil" uninflammatory discourse offered by some of the other people participating in this topic, and then perhaps you can reassess whether we're the BIG culprits:

 

"From moderator “Off-White” in addressing “dmuja”:

For a born again wannabe dwayner-lite sycophant, you sure know how to be a sport climber…and it's so cute when you act all tough 'n sh*t…What a tool.

 

“Kevbone”, addressing “JosephH””

What an assh*le……” "What does think he is f$%king Hitler?

 

“high-on-rock” writes:

“From the casual observer, what is lacking from Don Ryan and Pope is rationality and civility. Calling people Dorks and posting Pee Wee Herman photos lowers the level of discussion far below any level that educated folks want to partake.”

 

NOTE: Read from the beginning of the topic to this point. The discussion from me was very civil and certainly rational from my perspective…no dorks…no Pee-Wee Herman…perhaps the only naughty thing I said up to this point was that calling sport-climbs “art” was conceited. Go ahead…check it out yourself…see who’s amping it up.

 

More from “hign-on-rock”:

“gotta tell you don, it blew me away to find out that you are actually an educated person.”

“The sad part is that you are the only one who does not realize that the high horse has stumbled and you are falling.”

“Give us your information Pope. Come on girlfriend, be brave."

 

JayB joins the fray: “Bill - don't distract them. With every post you coax out of them you're depriving them of a morsel of time, energy, or concentration that they'll need so bring about the closure of all sport climbing areas in the Northwest.”

 

Ken4ord contributes: “BTW poop….”

 

Kevbone addressing “Puma”: “Another asinine comment…..” “Well…..tough sh*t…..”

 

Dechristo chimes in: “what a dork”

 

A few more Kevbonisms: “......you need to get your head examined.”

“Wow......Pope.....that was a bitch slap if I ever saw one. Getting crushed at your own game.....wow!” “Oh man Pope......getting worked over eh?”

 

RuMR: “Dwayner and his sidekick poop are all about themselves...only themselves...and they will couch their attitude in a "more ethically pure" bullsh*t frame.”

“Come on, quit being a dick... f&ck, man, you and dwayner just make everything f&cking so black and white...get a f&ckin' life and take up a worthier cause...”

“cue raindawg with a richard simmons circle jerk poster...”

 

RichardNoggin: “YO POOP……get a life…STFU." “…too bad you cant see through your own sh*t”.

 

More from “high-on-rock”:

“The problem with Pope and Ryan is that they try to use the anonymity of the internet to be jerks without cost. No one has a problem with the views they put forth, merely with the junior high manner through which they put forth the views, and the “holier than thou” condescending tone they use. From here on out I believe I may send their identities by PM to folks upon whom they anonymously piss. Perhaps with a lack of anonymity comes accountability, and through accountability comes temperance.”

 

Yup...it's all Dwayner and Pope...gettin' the folks all hot and bothered and MAKING THEM express the poetry cited above.

 

 

 

 

 

Very nice review. Eight pages of "civil" and "educated" types like high_on_bolts making all kinds of insults and then admonishing you and me for being juvenile. Looks like they shut up for the moment....maybe they were just unaware of how nasty they were making the conversation!

 

Sorry gang, I've been working all day. Is there anybody here who really wants to know (and doesn't already know) my name? Send me a PM and I'll tell you. But please don't spread my name around in full view on this board. II'd rather not have my real name appear in conjunction with all of the snotty, juvenile stuff (like that which Dwayner just posted), just in case somebody respectable happens to be reading this.

 

Regarding JayB's question: there are two aspects of sport climbing that make it considerably differnt than traditional slab climbing. First, sport climbs are always established on rappel (by definition). ANYBODY can "pioneer" such a route. Zero commitment, zero balls, zero skill, zero judgement required. Stopping to place a bolt is done on the way down by locking off the rope. There is complete safety. There is zero adventure. Often the bolts (being so easy to place) are placed way too close together. Often the climbs (being so easy to establish) are squeezed way too close together.

 

Now, after the first ascent, once a line of bolts exists (on a sport climb or on a traditional slab climb), is there a difference? Generally yes (but not always). Because the bolts on sport climbs tend to be so close together you CAN often aid from one bolt to the next, or at the very least, you can climb completely out of control, throwing yourself at each move (or sequence of two moves) between bolts as though it were a bouldering problem. Great fun! But if you take that approach on most traditional slab climbs, you're going to get spanked. Traditional slab climbing requires you honestly to be able to handle the climb's difficulties (or deal with huge falls). So, even after the route is established, there is an extremely important difference in the two approaches.

somebody responsible? This is cascadeclimbers!

[Rad]

Um, hello. This is the internet, where Nigerian cons extract money from grandma and middle-aged men lure teen girls to be raped if they don't get nabbed by Dateline first. CC is tame by comparison, so toughen up or go back to the shopping channel.

 

Some CCers post under a real name, some post with a fake name. Sometimes they have good things to post sometimes not. From what I see, there is not much of a correlation between handle type and post quality.

 

btw, my name really is like totally Rad, DUDE!

[RuMR]

 

Very nice review. Eight pages of "civil" and "educated" types like high_on_bolts making all kinds of insults and then admonishing you and me for being juvenile. Looks like they shut up for the moment....maybe they were just unaware of how nasty they were making the conversation!

 

Sorry gang, I've been working all day. Is there anybody here who really wants to know (and doesn't already know) my name? Send me a PM and I'll tell you. But please don't spread my name around in full view on this board. II'd rather not have my real name appear in conjunction with all of the snotty, juvenile stuff (like that which Dwayner just posted), just in case somebody respectable happens to be reading this.

 

Regarding JayB's question: there are two aspects of sport climbing that make it considerably differnt than traditional slab climbing. First, sport climbs are always established on rappel (by definition). ANYBODY can "pioneer" such a route. Zero commitment, zero balls, zero skill, zero judgement required. Stopping to place a bolt is done on the way down by locking off the rope. There is complete safety. There is zero adventure. Often the bolts (being so easy to place) are placed way too close together. Often the climbs (being so easy to establish) are squeezed way too close together.

 

Now, after the first ascent, once a line of bolts exists (on a sport climb or on a traditional slab climb), is there a difference? Generally yes (but not always). Because the bolts on sport climbs tend to be so close together you CAN often aid from one bolt to the next, or at the very least, you can climb completely out of control, throwing yourself at each move (or sequence of two moves) between bolts as though it were a bouldering problem. Great fun! But if you take that approach on most traditional slab climbs, you're going to get spanked. Traditional slab climbing requires you honestly to be able to handle the climb's difficulties (or deal with huge falls). So, even after the route is established, there is an extremely important difference in the two approaches.

you obviously haven't climbed anything even remotely steep, say in the southeast, have you?? hahaha sport by definition top down! hahahaha...slab climbing pussy!!! hahahaha

Edited July 26, 2007 by RuMR

[RuMR]

 

Very nice review. Eight pages of "civil" and "educated" types like high_on_bolts making all kinds of insults and then admonishing you and me for being juvenile. Looks like they shut up for the moment....maybe they were just unaware of how nasty they were making the conversation!

 

Sorry gang, I've been working all day. Is there anybody here who really wants to know (and doesn't already know) my name? Send me a PM and I'll tell you. But please don't spread my name around in full view on this board. II'd rather not have my real name appear in conjunction with all of the snotty, juvenile stuff (like that which Dwayner just posted), just in case somebody respectable happens to be reading this.

 

Regarding JayB's question: there are two aspects of sport climbing that make it considerably differnt than traditional slab climbing. First, sport climbs are always established on rappel (by definition). ANYBODY can "pioneer" such a route. Zero commitment, zero balls, zero skill, zero judgement required. Stopping to place a bolt is done on the way down by locking off the rope. There is complete safety. There is zero adventure. Often the bolts (being so easy to place) are placed way too close together. Often the climbs (being so easy to establish) are squeezed way too close together.

Now, after the first ascent, once a line of bolts exists (on a sport climb or on a traditional slab climb), is there a difference? Generally yes (but not always). Because the bolts on sport climbs tend to be so close together you CAN often aid from one bolt to the next, or at the very least, you can climb completely out of control, throwing yourself at each move (or sequence of two moves) between bolts as though it were a bouldering problem. Great fun! But if you take that approach on most traditional slab climbs, you're going to get spanked. Traditional slab climbing requires you honestly to be able to handle the climb's difficulties (or deal with huge falls). So, even after the route is established, there is an extremely important difference in the two approaches.

 

hey wankslabmeister...ever climb at ceuse or buoux or verdon or any REAL sport climbing areas?? You'd be looking at 50-60 footers if you "climbed out of control"...

 

this discussion is so myopic since your frame of reference appears to take junk like newhalem and exit 38 as the standard for sport climbing...

[kevbone]

 

this discussion is so myopic since your frame of reference appears to take junk like newhalem and exit 38 as the standard for sport climbing...

 

That is a very good point Ru…..what is the standard for sport climbing? Or more to the point….where?

 

Smith? That is kind of the start of it. I would not say that place has soft and easy sport climbs……a lot of what I have climbed there is ten feet between bolts.

 

[RuMR]

by the same token, you can take a 5.10 hand crack and feel so incredibly secure and safe that gear is irrelevent, despite the fact that if you carried 30+ pieces, you could aid every stinkin' move...

[hawkeye69]

 

this discussion is so myopic since your frame of reference appears to take junk like newhalem and exit 38 as the standard for sport climbing...

 

That is a very good point Ru…..what is the standard for sport climbing? Or more to the point….where?

 

Smith? That is kind of the start of it. I would not say that place has soft and easy sport climbs……a lot of what I have climbed there is ten feet between bolts.

 

Thats probably because many of those were done in the 80's when even rapp bolters wanted to maintain a sense of adventure...sorry

 

 

[pms]

Eric and Don, love your energy. I'm a huge fan. Your posts have some value and even get lots of others to share their opinions. Looks like you're getting lots of hits too. Just one question, the bolt on the climb near carnival crack in the Icicle, was it a rap deal or was it placed on lead?

 

Oh, and could you ask Pope and Mr. Raindog to please not chop the bolt on SEWS. I know it's a chicken shit bolt, tried to place it in a spot you wouldn't see.

Edited July 27, 2007 by pms

[Fairweather]

 

 

 

By the way, Fairweather, he may have sent you an e-mail, but did my liberal friend you so despise actually physically threaten you or call you at work? You still complain about him periodically, but I have not seen you complain about anybody else harassing you. Was there somebody else? The same guy who called me and some others at work, perhaps? Yes, it happens, but the way to avoid it is not to disclose your identity only once a year but to avoid drawing so much attention to yourself in the first place.

 

I wasn't using my full name but for a couple weeks when the incident occurred, so it seemed logical at that point to assume it would become a problem. Even you should be able to figure out that since becoming "Fairweather" the problem hasn't reoccurred. As for "disclosing my identity about once a year" you are trying to argue your point using a 'non-truth' - a common tactic of yours. I have not revealed my identity in an open forum since taking on Fairweather - ever. I have posted TR's with pics, so it is possible anyone who really cared could identify me in public - and if they had a problem with me they could address it at that point - great. But that's a far cry from one's full name that can be used to access detailed personal information about someone's life.

 

As for the debate: It seems, Matt, that you have big issues with Pope and Raindawg's standards. Right or wrong, it is clear they regularly touch a nerve that you find unbearably painful. That you have used your moderator status to squelch debate on the subject in the past speaks volumes about not only your personal beliefs regarding the bolting topic, but about your own intolerance for (what you view as) dissident orthodoxy.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Fairweather

[Off_White]

I've seen your real name coupled with Fairweather in at least one summit register in the Olympics, and I think you did that too when you and I did Stone earlier this year. You were pretty forthcoming when I first met you at a Pub Club in Tacoma, and don't seem to shy about who you are in the real world via PM with anyone who's respectful. These are good things by the way.

[AlpineK]

My avatar picture is me and my screen name has been my nickname for a lot longer than having any regular interaction with a computer.

[kevbone]

What beer are you holding Feck?

[mattp]

Fairweather, actually it has happened at least twice that I've complained about your attempting to intimidate me by posting my real name yet hiding yours, and you felt compelled to acknowledge who you were. In one of those incidents, you posted something to the effect of: I am ___________, and I live in ___________ - are you happy now? I can't find it with the search function. Did you ask a moderator to delete it? You are right in that I don't think you ever volunteered your ID quite in the same fashion that Dawg has.

 

Don't worry. We allow folks to post anonymously on cc.com. That is not likely to change unless several moderators agree that someone is unfairly targetting somebody else by name, while hiding their own identity (or doing something similar). My only real point is that I think you and others would behave a little differently if you were allowed only to post under your real name and I made the secondary point that I believe you are dishonest in failing acknowledge the manner in which you hide behind that anonymity. I am not going to post your name and phone number, but you certainly have not indicated I am incorrect.

 

Edited July 27, 2007 by mattp

[AlpineK]

What beer are you holding Feck?

 

A Thirsty Beaver

[kevbone]

My avatar picture is me and my screen name has been my nickname for a lot longer than having any regular interaction with a computer.

 

 

Me too.....acutally pink (andrew) named me kevbone 15 years ago and most of my friends call me that.