Climbing, how much, how difficult and for how long

[Sherri]

...Understanding their/our mental skills maybe helpful for those who need help with serious issues...

 

 

But what if climbing IS your problem??? Who's gonna help us ?

 

 

 

 

[mattp]

I'd be interested to hear about it if you found some consistent correlation between our status as climbers and any particular coping mechanism. Although I bet a high percentage of climbers will tell you that the lessons they've learned in the mountains or on the rock translate to "daily life," I'm a bit skeptical. Folks I've known as climbers over the years come in all shapes and sizes, but most are really rather "average."

 

I used to work for Outward Bound and I instructed groups ranging from screw up kids to adult professionals. We always talked a lot about "personal growth" and stuff like that, but I'm not convinced there was any great therapeutic benefit in rapelling or carrying a pack around the hills.

 

With the hoods in the woods, I did think that our assessments of personality traits and "who was most likely to succeed" in what-the-heck reform school were more consistently accurate than those of the social workers who evaluated them based on a couple of interviews but I really don't think we did a lot for little Johnny's self esteem or whatever.

[minddoc]

I have no intention of taking people climbing or using Physical skills for climbing mountains in order to help them. I am looking at the ego defenses people use. Thus far it appears that climbers intellectualize more than non-climbers. So I am looking at how intellectualization can help people over come fears etc. Is intellectualization a skill that can be helpful to others and if so how does one develop that ability instead of using denial or avoidance etc.

 

I'd be interested to hear about it if you found some consistent correlation between our status as climbers and any particular coping mechanism. Although I bet a high percentage of climbers will tell you that the lessons they've learned in the mountains or on the rock translate to "daily life," I'm a bit skeptical. Folks I've known as climbers over the years come in all shapes and sizes, but most are really rather "average."

 

I used to work for Outward Bound and I instructed groups ranging from screw up kids to adult professionals. We always talked a lot about "personal growth" and stuff like that, but I'm not convinced there was any great therapeutic benefit in rapelling or carrying a pack around the hills.

 

With the hoods in the woods, I did think that our assessments of personality traits and "who was most likely to succeed" in what-the-heck reform school were more consistently accurate than those of the social workers who evaluated them based on a couple of interviews but I really don't think we did a lot for little Johnny's self esteem or whatever.

[mattp]

I have some serious doubts about the intellectual capacity of many of my climbing friends, too!

 

So how does this work - or how might it? We learn to rationalize about things that will be challenging or rationalize our way through scary situations?

[ScottP]

Yeah, {doing a dissertation} but {can't distinguish between then and than} = {mail order diploma}?

It is unintelligible gibberish. I mean, muffy can't spell but I can still understand her.

Oh yeah, get results you don't agree with, must need to redesign the questionnaire until you get the results you wanted to find in the first place.

Jimmy, who was raped by a priest when he was 10, and now smokes crack 10x a day, is sure going to be happy to find out that all he needs to do to help himself is send a couple 5.12s

 

It's obvious climbing hasn't helped you with your psychological problems.

Isn't there some kind of label for people who verbally attack another without provocation?

Oh yeah, it's called a sociopath.

[minddoc]

You think you have a problem. What about me ! One of the reasons I think I stayed in school for so long was so I could keep climbing and adventuring. That's one of the reasons I picked climbing to research because I could do stuff like this at work and justify it. Now that I have gotten into it, it seems like it could be helpful to others. But not us as climbers. Diagnoses I have high anxiety levels and climbing is better then being a drunk. I think climbing is calming for me... a bit paradoxical.

 

Sorry no help here for your climbing problem... the alternative is most likely going to the mall...

...Understanding their/our mental skills maybe helpful for those who need help with serious issues...

 

 

But what if climbing IS your problem??? Who's gonna help us ?

 

 

 

[minddoc]

:lmao:

Nice

Yeah, {doing a dissertation} but {can't distinguish between then and than} = {mail order diploma}?

It is unintelligible gibberish. I mean, muffy can't spell but I can still understand her.

Oh yeah, get results you don't agree with, must need to redesign the questionnaire until you get the results you wanted to find in the first place.

Jimmy, who was raped by a priest when he was 10, and now smokes crack 10x a day, is sure going to be happy to find out that all he needs to do to help himself is send a couple 5.12s

 

It's obvious climbing hasn't helped you with your psychological problems.

Isn't there some kind of label for people who verbally attack another without provocation?

Oh yeah, it is called a sociopath.

Edited June 21, 2007 by minddoc

[DirtyHarry]

One of my findings was that there are few people who climb for more then 4 years. It seems that the novelty runs out for them.

 

Wonder if these findings were due to the fact you did your study in California.

[minddoc]

Good question? Why do you think they would be more likely to stop before 4 years in cal.

One of my findings was that there are few people who climb for more then 4 years. It seems that the novelty runs out for them.

 

Wonder if these findings were due to the fact you did your study in California.

[wayne]

Because they can climb almost whenever they want, so it gets old.

[minddoc]

Rationalization is about the same thing as intellectualizing. So you are right, in theory the climber rationalizes more then the non-climbing population in every day life, not only with climbing.

 

So there are some theories that might suggest intellectualizing or rationalization is a “better” way of coping or a better “ego defense” then others such as denial, avoidance, regression (becoming child like), etc.

 

At this point I am not sure how that is helpful for anyone. So I need to do some work, and you guys/gals are helping me think through this so thanks.

 

It’s really cool to get peoples view on this. I have been working on it for so long I have a hard time developing new questions and ideas. It seems like people who don’t know the work can ask questions that are obvious to others but not to me because I have been looking at it for so long.

 

I have some serious doubts about the intellectual capacity of many of my climbing friends, too!

 

So how does this work - or how might it? We learn to rationalize about things that will be challenging or rationalize our way through scary situations?

Edited June 22, 2007 by minddoc

[TREETOAD]

"Tommy boy"

 

Do you go to Central? I was on my sixth year of school there.

 

"A lot of people go to college for six years."

 

"Yeah, they're called doctors."

 

Actually they are called rich kids dodging the draft.

[archenemy]

I am a little confused as to the premise of the study. We, as climbers, certainly have the same makeup of the rest of the population when it comes to mental/emotional traumas and whatnot. So, what is it that makes you assume that we have better coping mechanisms than the rest of society? Being able to hoist yer ass up a rock doesn't mean you've learned how to succeed in relationships, grow as an individual, or become more sympathetic to others any more than if you had never climbed at all. I don't get it.

[Maestro]

I gotta return to this spelling thing (collective groan!).

 

Nobody has mentioned a glaring incongruity. The spelling in the poll is sub-third grade, but all the posts are well-written and--except for one "then" which slipped in--have almost impeccable spelling, as far as I could tell. Like you would expect from a Ph.D.

 

Now who has a theory about that? Did minddoc have his second grade kid type up the poll??

[minddoc]

Good question not "better coping mechanisms" but different. And you are right I am making some assumptions that climbers are different or we would be playing baseball and driving around in RVs. There seems to be a subset of people who climb and then a smaller subset of climbers who climb their whole life and make it a lifestyle. At this point the research is saying climbers are mostly the same as others. They only seem to differ in intellectualizing. But I think there is more… But maybe not… we will see

 

I am a little confused as to the premise of the study. We, as climbers, certainly have the same makeup of the rest of the population when it comes to mental/emotional traumas and whatnot. So, what is it that makes you assume that we have better coping mechanisms than the rest of society? Being able to hoist yer ass up a rock doesn't mean you've learned how to succeed in relationships, grow as an individual, or become more sympathetic to others any more than if you had never climbed at all. I don't get it.

[minddoc]

Its not over yet, I am sure to do some more 3rd grade spelling soon. Truth be known I am one of the few Doctors of Psychology (PsyD) who have a learning disability (Dyslexia). More then that I use writing and reading technology to write because my writing skills are so poor. I was unable to use my writing technology on the poll or go back and edit. So yes I will spell like a 3rd grader at times. No big deal for me…but it can cause some difficulties for others…(G-spotter)

 

Anyway, I’m off to the Ice cliff this weekend. It could make for a difficult weekend for me, pushing my level again.

 

I gotta return to this spelling thing (collective groan!).

 

Nobody has mentioned a glaring incongruity. The spelling in the poll is sub-third grade, but all the posts are well-written and--except for one "then" which slipped in--have almost impeccable spelling, as far as I could tell. Like you would expect from a Ph.D.

 

Now who has a theory about that? Did minddoc have his second grade kid type up the poll??

Edited June 22, 2007 by minddoc

[Kat_Roslyn]

No not a student, just work in the area. Give me some feed back on your experience, please.

 

Do you go to Central? I was on my sixth year of school there.

Don't tell me what to do.

[minddoc]

I said--Please seriously if you have anything to add please do.

No not a student, just work in the area. Give me some feed back on your experience, please.

 

Do you go to Central? I was on my sixth year of school there.

Don't tell me what to do.

[JayB]

Hey MindDoc:

 

I wish you well in your study, and hope that you'll share the results here when it's complete.

 

When I was just getting into climbing, I had this idea that whenever I found myself in a stressful situation in my day-to-day life, be it a job interview or what have you, I'd be able to look back to one of the leads that had my at my physical, mental, and emotional limits - and whatever I was facing at that moment would seem less dire and consequential. Unfortunately, despite some persistent effort on my part, this state of climber-zen never materialized.

 

Ultimately I found that other than the relationships and memories forged in that environment, the overwhelming majority of the joys and benefits of climbing are contained within the act of climbing itself. Moreover, rather than deliberately reflecting on climbing as a means of coping with the petty hassles and everyday stresses that I confront in the course of my day-to-day routine, I found that the primary psychological benefit that I've derived from climbing or any other risky activity comes from the moments of pure focus that they demand, which leave no room for reflecting on or worrying about anything outside of that particular instant.

 

In many ways, climbing and activities like it seem like a way of escaping from the stresses of everyday life, and perhaps alleviating the affects of the same, rather than dealing with it directly at the time and place where it's encountered.

 

I'd have to say that on the whole, there almost seems to be an inverse relationship between one's accomplishments as a climber and the condition of one's personal and professional life. This isn't a hard and fast rule, and there are plenty of people out there who do amazing things on the rock and ice without their devotion to the sport having any adverse effect on their life outside of climbing, but on the whole I'd say that beyond a certain point - the devotion to the self and the sheer amount of time and effort that climbing at a certain standard often demands can undermine quite a few important things that lie outside of the activity.

 

 

[minddoc]

This is a great point, your statement was actually my first idea for the research, the ability to have "moments of pure focus." Being in the moment is one of the most important theories being developed in psychology at this time, in my view. Kirk Streusel does a lot of work in this area. The theory suggest that we as humans spend much of our day thinking about the future or the past but not in the moment, being here right now. Climbing brings people to that place of being in the moment, out of necessity, so we don't die. One can't worry about other problems out side of the here and now when you are on an ice wall. This in turn makes us become very efficient at climbing.

 

So the idea is taking that ability to be in the moment and bringing it to everyday life. Being in the moment with ones current thoughts, feelings, and body sensations helps to direct people for their next move. This is seen everyday as a climber. This maybe why we climb because climbing gives us an in the moment experience that does not happen for us out side of climbing. Can you imagine the ability people could have if they could take the in the moment experience that they have in climbing to everyday life? In climbing (and in theory) we look at our emotions and are able to observe them but continue with committed action in order to reach our value of the summit. We don't see our emotions as something to avoid in climbing, they give us signals to proceed with our values of climbing. In life it appears to be much easier to see emotions as something to avoid, and we can do that because we are not on a ice wall.

 

Of course this idea has been around for hundreds of years in Asia, but I think it needs to be worked on from a perspective that can be used in our culture.

 

Hey MindDoc:

 

I wish you well in your study, and hope that you'll share the results here when it's complete.

 

When I was just getting into climbing, I had this idea that whenever I found myself in a stressful situation in my day-to-day life, be it a job interview or what have you, I'd be able to look back to one of the leads that had my at my physical, mental, and emotional limits - and whatever I was facing at that moment would seem less dire and consequential. Unfortunately, despite some persistent effort on my part, this state of climber-zen never materialized.

 

Ultimately I found that other than the relationships and memories forged in that environment, the overwhelming majority of the joys and benefits of climbing are contained within the act of climbing itself. Moreover, rather than deliberately reflecting on climbing as a means of coping with the petty hassles and everyday stresses that I confront in the course of my day-to-day routine, I found that the primary psychological benefit that I've derived from climbing or any other risky activity comes from the moments of pure focus that they demand, which leave no room for reflecting on or worrying about anything outside of that particular instant.

 

In many ways, climbing and activities like it seem like a way of escaping from the stresses of everyday life, and perhaps alleviating the affects of the same, rather than dealing with it directly at the time and place where it's encountered.

 

I'd have to say that on the whole, there almost seems to be an inverse relationship between one's accomplishments as a climber and the condition of one's personal and professional life. This isn't a hard and fast rule, and there are plenty of people out there who do amazing things on the rock and ice without their devotion to the sport having any adverse effect on their life outside of climbing, but on the whole I'd say that beyond a certain point - the devotion to the self and the sheer amount of time and effort that climbing at a certain standard often demands can undermine quite a few important things that lie outside of the activity.

 

Edited June 22, 2007 by minddoc

[Alpine_Tom]

I'd be sort of surprised to find any real differences between climbers and the general population, or at least the general population of athletic-type people. I know intelligent climbers, not-very-bright climbers, super-motivated climbers, "I dunno, wanna go climb something, maybe?" climbers.

Especially if you lump together everyone from 5.14 sport climbers to twice-a-year volcano sloggers.

 

Seems like the one thing that sets us apart, only half-joking, is the inability to learn from our experiences. You spend a miserable night shivvering on an unplanned bivvy on Stuart and six interminable hours slogging out, and a few days later you're telling everyone what a great trip it was!

[G-spotter]

Don't worry, he's already decided that climbers are different, so he'll keep ignoring all contrary evidence until he's damn well proved it.

[Gary_Yngve]

Don't worry, he's already decided that climbers are different, so he'll keep ignoring all contrary evidence until he's damn well proved it.

 

Don't be such a hardass, Jimmy.

[sk]

I'd be sort of surprised to find any real differences between climbers and the general population, or at least the general population of athletic-type people. I know intelligent climbers, not-very-bright climbers, super-motivated climbers, "I dunno, wanna go climb something, maybe?" climbers.

Especially if you lump together everyone from 5.14 sport climbers to twice-a-year volcano sloggers.

 

Seems like the one thing that sets us apart, only half-joking, is the inability to learn from our experiences. You spend a miserable night shivvering on an unplanned bivvy on Stuart and six interminable hours slogging out, and a few days later you're telling everyone what a great trip it was!

 

you may have hit the nail on the head there. most climbers have a relatively short memory of pain. many people who suffer from dysfunction suffer from some kind of post traumatic stress. they can't let go a or some painful things that have happened. and are traumatized by that. climbers tend to thrive having had some kind of outrageous experience and then telling humorous or exciting stories about the experience that would land other people in the loony bin