Raindawg Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 first of all, you have no right to take anybodys draws, and leave a note where they can come get them?? are they yours? no. so dont touch them. Why do you think you have a right to leave them? Especially on public property? secondly its not selfish look at all hard routes. If you think that the difficulty justifies leaving the refuse on the wall, you don't have much of an argument. If you think all "hard" routes are done this way, you need to step outside of the especially selfish world of sport-climbing where leaving a mess seems to be acceptable as long as some "entertaining" line results. third if you have a problem with fixing draws, you better get you ass to smith because you have a lot of work to do takeing them down, that would be alot of rapelling, since im guessing you cant climb that hard. Smith Rock was very cool before it became a bolt-circus (and a heck of a lot less crowded!). I remember the first time I saw a line of quick draws left on some route in the Dihedrals. The first thing that came to my mind was, "what's the matter with these people?" My feelings haven't changed. Vantage?....it's a shameful atrocity. finaly, dont touch my draws at little si I don't have the time nor the inclination, but I think you should take them down. If someone else chooses to, perhaps they can leave them with a note at the North Bend Ranger Station, indicating where they were found so their owner can retrieve them and remember to take them home next time. Maybe the rangers will have an opinion about whether it's appropriate for anyone to leave their stuff up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 *yawn* same song and dance from the pin whacker... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 If you think that the difficulty justifies leaving the refuse on the wall, you don't have much of an argument. If you think all "hard" routes are done this way, you need to step outside of the especially selfish world of sport-climbing where leaving a mess seems to be acceptable as long as some "entertaining" line results. Oh my....well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 If you think that the difficulty justifies leaving the refuse on the wall, you don't have much of an argument. If you think all "hard" routes are done this way, you need to step outside of the especially selfish world of sport-climbing where leaving a mess seems to be acceptable as long as some "entertaining" line results. Oh my....well said. Agreed: noting that there's something ya won't see everyday, Dwayner and Kevin agreeing. If they were that easy to pull, don't ya think you should have done it yourself. I feel the same as I always have. Don't leave them. Don't take em if somebody was selfish and left them. Leave others shit alone. If it's really garbage, like a car engine or washing machine tossed over a cliff, pick it up and put it in the trash, otherwise, leave it be. Sometimes draws are near impossible to pull. Steep, overhanging, long runouts. Sometimes it's just laziness. It's about respect and it's truly a 2 way street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jibby Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 fixed draws are nice and they have a reason. 32 is a sport climbing area if you haven't noticed. In europe, theirs so many fixed draws you don't know which route is which. So why bitch about having a few on the hard projs? If your worrying about the view then get a large toothbrush and scrape off the chalk. Also, don't steal them, they aren't in the best shape anyway and they ain't yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 No matter how many folks do it, or where they do it, or how long they've been doing it - leaving shit up on rock blows. Period. Folks rationalizing it is just another example of group spin and collective denial. In fact, it wobbles between painful and laughable to read the attempts presented here aimed at constructing a broad justification for the practice (and the 'we've already blighted the place with chalk so draws are fine' argument in particular scores extra points...). Kevin scores on this one - taking shit is lame, leaving shit is lame as well and an invitation to weak-minded individuals posing as climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 fixed draws are nice and they have a reason. 32 is a sport climbing area if you haven't noticed. In europe, theirs so many fixed draws you don't know which route is which. So why bitch about having a few on the hard projs? If your worrying about the view then get a large toothbrush and scrape off the chalk. Also, don't steal them, they aren't in the best shape anyway and they ain't yours. The French are renoun for going to remote areas and leaving trash all over the place. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? The French and Spanish bolt the cracks. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? You want I should go on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmoore Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 (edited) fixed draws are nice and they have a reason. 32 is a sport climbing area if you haven't noticed. In europe, theirs so many fixed draws you don't know which route is which. So why bitch about having a few on the hard projs? If your worrying about the view then get a large toothbrush and scrape off the chalk. Also, don't steal them, they aren't in the best shape anyway and they ain't yours. The French are renoun for going to remote areas and leaving trash all over the place. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? The French and Spanish bolt the cracks. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? You want I should go on? Very good point Bill. I am sorry someone had their gear stolen, (here is comes) BUT, I am leaning on the side of the traditionalist on this one. Apparently, by your (the original poster) own words, you did leave your gear at the crag. What would be the difference if you left your gear at the base of the wall? And someone stole them from there instead of climbing the route to steal them. Would you be on this site complaining about it? Most likely not, due to your own ignorance of leaving your gear at the crag. In the cold reality of the circumstances surrounding the thievery, you did consciously leave your draws at the crag. This is entirely, without a doubt, your own fault. On the other hand it is too bad there are fools out there who would take them. Edited March 28, 2007 by Brianmoore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Bill - Please detail how this differs from fixing a couple of pitches on a wall. Let me be a bit more specific: True story. 27 years ago I drive down to Yosemite to climb the Horse Chute route. The weather sucks. Snowy and rainy for days. My partner and I decide to change our objective (shorter route) and start fixing a few pitches so that when the weather clears we can be a position to make it to the top before our vacation ended. We left our gear there for days. Some days we didnt get within a mile of El Cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 It does not differ. It sucks if someone steals your ropes. But you do take the risk of them being stolen when you leave your gear at the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Peter, I think people should leave your stuff alone. No matter if they are fixed draws or rope. I think people should have left this fellas stuff alone too, and if he finds them he should kick their ass's and I'd help. As I mentioned earlier, I have, right now, a rope hanging off some f*ing crag. It's not a beater rope either. I've left ropes fixed on the Captain too. I think this kind of thing is situational. If the OP was getting out frequently and thought that getting these draws off the bolts on THIS route was difficult, or relatively unsafe, then why not leave em. He was going to bang it out and pull em when he was done and he didn't think it was a long term thing. (OK, I'll grant that 10 days isn't necessarilly banging it out). However: it does seem to me that this has turned into an acceptable practice in our community and draws are left due to laziness alone in many cases. (I don't know about this case specifically). I find that unplatable and it shouldn't be the case IMO. Pull your shit when you're done. Sometimes, like probably in this case, or in my case (I was asked to leave the rope by another so I did), you're not done. You're not finished. It's a judgement call and a fine line which can more easily be walked if folks on either side of the line were to think of other people. Bottom line for me though is this: Don't f* with peoples stuff. Me, you, anybody. There, that's what defines it to me. Your results, as they say, can and will vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jibby Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 The french and spanish climb twice as hard as you probally ever will, they have this climbing thing rigged pretty nicely over there. The spanish are doing laps on 14s. 32 is a sport crag. If you don't like it go to vantage and do your trad climbs. Fixed draws make it easier to train. You still shouldn't remove the draws. Ask the person who bolted the route or who put them there. but aleast talk before action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 I've climbed in Spain and there are just as many lowlife unspecial climbers like me as there are here. And yeah, there are a lot of climbers in Europe who outclimb the lot of us. But that doesn't give license to take people's shit. Not here, not in Europe, not anywhere. Note: I agree folks shouldn't leave there stuff anywhere in the first place if it can be avoided. But don't steal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 fixed draws are nice and they have a reason. 32 is a sport climbing area if you haven't noticed. In europe, theirs so many fixed draws you don't know which route is which. So why bitch about having a few on the hard projs? If your worrying about the view then get a large toothbrush and scrape off the chalk. Also, don't steal them, they aren't in the best shape anyway and they ain't yours. The French are renoun for going to remote areas and leaving trash all over the place. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? The French and Spanish bolt the cracks. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? You want I should go on? Blah, blah blah. it sounds like you like hearing yourself talk. people don't leave draws up on anything lower than a 13+ here. On the 14's the draws arn't left up for long. The reason is if you leave them up they'll get stolen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 fixed draws are nice and they have a reason. 32 is a sport climbing area if you haven't noticed. In europe, theirs so many fixed draws you don't know which route is which. So why bitch about having a few on the hard projs? If your worrying about the view then get a large toothbrush and scrape off the chalk. Also, don't steal them, they aren't in the best shape anyway and they ain't yours. The French are renoun for going to remote areas and leaving trash all over the place. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? The French and Spanish bolt the cracks. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? You want I should go on? Blah, blah blah. it sounds like you like hearing yourself talk. people don't leave draws up on anything lower than a 13+ here. On the 14's the draws arn't left up for long. The reason is if you leave them up they'll get stolen. Soooo.....that’s it. It’s by grade? So if I decide to project a 12.b, which is my limit. I am subject to ridicule and possible thievery. This is not a strong argument. And quite frankly, who gives a fuck what they do in Europe. They bolt cracks over there. Point, take you shit with you, and being lazy is not an excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluck Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 This is just too much fun to leave alone. I've always wondered how the "old-school" practice of leaving gear on a project would hold up in today's increasingly crowded areas. Consider this scenario: I'm working Chain Reaction cuz it's going to be my first 12c but it's kicking my ass and I don't finish it on the first day. So I lower off the 4th bolt, pull my rope and head out for the night. I don't bother to clean my draws because I'll be back to finish my project after a rest day or two. Next day, some hot shot sporto shows up after doing laps on Scarface in his florescent lycra tights and wants to prove to his friends that he can onsight that "bitchin line on the cover." But shit, there's already draws on most of the bolts. That doesn't count as an onsight! Of course - that's purely hypothetical. I'll never climb Chain Reaction. But still, there are more an more people out there climbing hard routes and there's no guarantee the gear you leave on the route won't be in someone else's way. Don't get me wrong - I don't think it's ever acceptable to steal someone else's shit. But by leaving your draws on the route, seems like your just gambling that nobody else will come along before you return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Probably more than half of my current rack was originally left on routes by someone else and found by me Draws included. Going bolt-to-bolt in the morning on your proj and hanging the draws every day is part of this complete warm-up and contains 100% of your daily RDA of vitamins and minerals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 fixed draws are nice and they have a reason. 32 is a sport climbing area if you haven't noticed. In europe, theirs so many fixed draws you don't know which route is which. So why bitch about having a few on the hard projs? If your worrying about the view then get a large toothbrush and scrape off the chalk. Also, don't steal them, they aren't in the best shape anyway and they ain't yours. The French are renoun for going to remote areas and leaving trash all over the place. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? The French and Spanish bolt the cracks. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? You want I should go on? Blah, blah blah. it sounds like you like hearing yourself talk. people don't leave draws up on anything lower than a 13+ here. On the 14's the draws arn't left up for long. The reason is if you leave them up they'll get stolen. Soooo.....that’s it. It’s by grade? So if I decide to project a 12.b, which is my limit. I am subject to ridicule and possible thievery. This is not a strong argument. And quite frankly, who gives a fuck what they do in Europe. They bolt cracks over there. Point, take you shit with you, and being lazy is not an excuse. no...you are a target for ridicule no matter what... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashw_justin Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 Going bolt-to-bolt in the morning on your proj and hanging the draws every day is part of this complete warm-up and contains 100% of your daily RDA of vitamins and minerals. But, are you sure that it is possible to hang draws and redpoint in the same day? This makes me glad I'm weak enough not to have to worry about such dilemmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 of all the arguments i've heard on this board, this is one of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashw_justin Posted March 28, 2007 Share Posted March 28, 2007 I'm totally joking btw, hell, why not leave shit hanging. Few people seem to care, least of all those with any authority in the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 The french and spanish climb twice as hard as you probally ever will, they have this climbing thing rigged pretty nicely over there. The spanish are doing laps on 14s. 32 is a sport crag. If you don't like it go to vantage and do your trad climbs. Fixed draws make it easier to train. You still shouldn't remove the draws. Ask the person who bolted the route or who put them there. but aleast talk before action. Yah, whatever. Climbing difficulty shouldn't even be part of the issue. You want to train, go to the gym, but don't leave your crap outdoors for the rest of us to experience one way or another. A question asked earlier to those who think no one has "the right" to remove their quickdraws: Why do you think you have "the right" to leave them? Especially on public property? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 of all the arguments i've heard on this board, this is one of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Phil Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 But shit, there's already draws on most of the bolts. That doesn't count as an onsight! You sportos are so anal retentive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 So where has this thread gotten us? Its lame the thief’s disguised as climbers showed up and stole your gear, but it is also lame that you left you gear at the crag with the exposure to be stolen. Are we done yet? Or is there more opinions floating about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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