Media glorification of mountaineering accidents

[hippos_are_evil]

Howdy,

 

I was just over at katu.com and saw their poll of "Do you think climbers should be required to reimburse counties for rescue expenses?". And over 75% of people think climbers should reimburse counties. While we can blow them off as ignorant or whatever, I think as a community we should do something to combat this misinformation and ignorance.

 

I know on our forums we have put out the statistics of what percent of SAR operations are related to mountaineering and how the budget already exists for these events.

 

I think we need to be more proactive in this area and write to papers and the news stations. I'm the last person in the world to write letters to the editor, but this just bugs the hell out of me.

 

Is anyone here more literate than me who could help with this? Or is this a bad idea and I should let it go?

 

hippos

[catbirdseat]

I think we should close Mt. Hood to climbing completely. That would solve the PR problem. All the media attention grabbing stories are coming from Hood. It's a gumby magnet. I'm only half-kidding.

[Clavote]

I think we should close Mt. Hood to climbing completely. That would solve the PR problem. All the media attention grabbing stories are coming from Hood. It's a gumby magnet. I'm only half-kidding.

 

Yeah, it is a magnet.

 

For some strange reason people do not give Hood a much respect as a higher mountain. Beats the hell out of me why. I guess it's just natural selection.

 

What needs to be done is a press release that clarifies the specualtion going around. This needs to come from a credible organization, such as PMR (good for more donations), Mazamas, The Mountaineers, AAI, etc...

 

But they seem to be very quiet on this issue. Why?

[olyclimber]

It does seem like something that is worth working with one of your local climber advocacy groups to ensure fair treatment (or at least consistent treatment when compared to other recreational interest groups such as hunters, 'bilers, hikers, etc). The Washington Climbers Coalition, the Access Fund, and others aren't just about rock climbing.

 

At very least it is worth making sure your legislator knows your opinion during their knee-jerk sesh.

[kevbone]

 

What needs to be done is a press release that clarifies the specualtion going around. This needs to come from a credible organization, such as PMR (good for more donations), Mazamas,

 

I thought you said credible?

[robk]

Is this the Perfect Storm brewing?

 

Two high profile incidents and the political sharks smell blood in the water that the media is chumming.

 

The pols will be happy to single out the climbing user community even though it accounts for a small % of actual SAR costs across the country. The climbing community has a small voice and may get steamrolled.

 

Write your local representative(s) and cite the info. from some of the recent cost recovery studies from around the country. Encourage them to ammend the legislation to include all the other user groups - hikers, hunters, fisherman, snowmobilers, off-roaders, etc. and require them to carry an appropriate ELD/PLB. Be sure that they are included in any cost recovery proposal. Adding these groups to the list will ensure that their ox gets gored. They will either scream about it or roll over and take it. Enlist their help in killing the legislation (or at least apply it equitably).

 

This may blow over but don't be surprised if next winter you're showing the man your ELD or you're paying the fine.....

[Choada_Boy]

I think that counties and cities should be reimbursed for the cost of responding to car accidents, fires, etc, as well. Perhaps show a valid credit card to the EMTs before they offer help.

[Climzalot]

Hey folks. Good idea for a thread and I am glad that we are starting to notice, and in some cases respond to the abundance of misinformation and plain ignorance that seems to be surfacing about climbing as of late. As a climber and an employee of a guide service, I find it hard to swallow the fact that a few "climbers", and a few incidents are representing climbing and mountaineering as a whole in the eyes of the public. Thanks to the media for that.

 

Throughout the earlier Hood ordeal we received dozens of calls daily asking for our input, opinions, and perspective on the events. This was a great vehicle to help shape the media's opinion and reporting in a few cases. However, the cumulative effect was quite small when compared to scale of the coverage.

 

Some sort of unified effort to influence these processes, perceptions, and to speak up on behalf of the climbing community definitely seems like a good and appropriate thing. How exactly to do that I am not sure., but with collective talent and ambition floating around the board, something could materialize. Climbers, myself included of course, have never been to good at cooperation and group efforts. Perhaps this is encouraged, even bred by the nature of our sport, which requires a high degree of self-reliance, at most depending on a small group. This is especially apparent in the guiding world where we all tend to function independently from each other, with our own sets of rules, requirements, and methods for training and instruction. I have wished for a long time that there could be more cooperation between services and organizations like the AMGA. It would great to see us all pulled more closely together through these things, rather sending each of us scurrying off to our corners of safety and familiarity, ignoring the big picture in the process.

 

Several employees, including the Directorial staff, of the American Alpine Institute called and emailed Representative John Lim prior to Tuesday's hearing in Salem regarding the bill to require MLU's. As I understand it, Lim is heading up the process and is directly in charge of creating and pushing the bill. I would be happy to provide a copy of my letter for anyone who would like to see what I had to say and possible glean some information for their own use. All the major points have certainly been covered in one form or another here previously. They key is making sure the people in charge of the process hear what you all have to say before the take action.

 

I haven't heard the outcome of the hearing and I don't know much about the process. I will do a little more digging today if possible.

 

Here is the address I was given to reach John Lim . The message I sent was received my an administrative assistant of sorts who assured me that the note would be delivered.

 

As for how to reach the media, perhaps a press release of sorts that would carry the signatures of and/or backing from guide services and climbing organizations across the country, even world, would be a good way to start. I have wanted to post some sort of perspective article on our web site for a while now, but have not yet done that and may not for a few different reasons.

 

I look forward to seeing what becomes.

 

Coley

 

[ryland_moore]

That is the problem with the proposed Bill. There is no enforcement clause. No fines will be assessed for not cairrying an MLU! So they are spensing all of thi money to propose a bill that will have no teeth and wasting tax payers money doing it. I already wrote my Congressman. I was surprised no one stepped up to get a petition started last night at PSU for the PMR show. I coutldn't make it and was stuck at the office, but the liberals are always out there getting signatures for something! Climbers are stereotypically labeled as far left and activist-minded. How come we can't get something started on this? Too busy smoking a bowl to get up off the couch and away from the computers to get people to sign a petition?

 

I'd be willing to volunteer a few hours down at Pioneer Courthouse Square to get signatures. I'd also be willing to help start a chain e-mail that every Oregon voter could sign electronically.....

[hippos_are_evil]

Howdy,

 

So could someone send me or reply with addresses of other organizations that would likely to be interested in this? I have pmru.org, but that's about it.

 

I can email them all and see what their responses are and add their ideas/#s and such and see what direction we can take.

 

I'm not sure what the best way to release a joint email/letter, if anyone knows let me know. I do have a friend at a AM new radio station so maybe that could help out as well.

 

hippos

[jordop]

For some strange reason people do not give Hood a much respect as a higher mountain. Beats the hell out of me why. I guess it's just natural selection.

 

Cascade Volcano Syndrome. If we were truly concerned about climber deaths on Hood we would be looking for a cure. I say get Bill and Melinda to set up a lab and do some trials with Taun Taun stem cells.

[Weekend_Climberz]

Has anyone even begun to think about the fact that Rainier NP is closed right now and so all the newbs are flocking to Hood. I'm surprised that there has been less accidents on Baker due to this fact, but that is more likely because there tends to be more Canadians that frequent that mountain. Our neighbors to the North tend to take more responsibility for their own actions, where as us stupid Americans want to blame everyone else but themselves. Go ahead you media fuck ups, make a big hullabulloo about this accident and that accident. I don't care if they make more rules for climbing, it's just more that I will ignore. Bandit climbers Unite.

[bstach]

Is anyone here more literate than me who could help with this?

 

Clearly you dont read this message bored with all the speling and grammer mistakes.

[archenemy]

Knotzen is a writer; maybe PM her?

[dmuja]

Good luck trying to organize climbers, not saying "don't try", just that its quite the task. BTW I posted something similar after the December "event".

 

I think the solution is to have a jury of 12 climbers waiting back at the lodge for an instant trial of whom ever got rescued. If they'er found "stupid" and their incident "preventable" then they get dragged back up the mountain and left for dead because of all the bad pub they brought upon the sport - and then we get to shoot the media ass clowns as well just for the fun of it.

 

good times..

[macmurtb]

Mega media glorification!!

 

check the link for the VIDEO here: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2892124&page=1

 

Looks like they got some stardom from this.

 

I'm totally glad these folks are ok, but...i have hard time with the fact that the world is going to associate all climbers/mountaineers with these four individuals who did a poor job of being smart climbers/mountaineers. My partners and I always make sure to check the weather before we head out. In fact, many times the weather determines where we go. If it looks bad, we don't go. This is a HUGE lesson that i feel many people (newbies and veterans) have not learned...climbing is dangerous (fatal at times) if you don't do your homework...

 

My other concern is this, why rope up if you don't know what to do? I mean, i thought that the whole point of roping up is so that if someone falls into a crevasse or off a cliff, that there are others that can drop into a self arrest to help hold the fall..? Were they all walking together? If so, why rope up? So that if one person falls into a crevasse/off a cliff then there are others to keep them company? Hmm.....In addition, why rope up if you don't have the necessary rescue equipment (pickets (or some other sort of anchor), prusiks, slings..etc)?

 

[cindy66]

Mega media glorification!!

 

check the link for the VIDEO here: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2892124&page=1

 

Looks like they got some stardom from this.

 

I'm totally glad these folks are ok, but...i have hard time with the fact that the world is going to associate all climbers/mountaineers with these four individuals who did a poor job of being smart climbers/mountaineers. My partners and I always make sure to check the weather before we head out. In fact, many times the weather determines where we go. If it looks bad, we don't go. This is a HUGE lesson that i feel many people (newbies and veterans) have not learned...climbing is dangerous (fatal at times) if you don't do your homework...

 

My other concern is this, why rope up if you don't know what to do? I mean, i thought that the whole point of roping up is so that if someone falls into a crevasse or off a cliff, that there are others that can drop into a self arrest to help hold the fall..? Were they all walking together? If so, why rope up? So that if one person falls into a crevasse/off a cliff then there are others to keep them company? Hmm.....In addition, why rope up if you don't have the necessary rescue equipment (pickets (or some other sort of anchor), prusiks, slings..etc)?

 

 

 

 

You say they done a poor job of being smart. This is showing redundance.You never know what each step up there may bring(avy,fall,hit in the head by chunks)This is a risk you take when you climb.Are you a climber? or something else?

[ryland_moore]

Cindy, he does have a point. There are no crevasses or rockfall where they were. They were just above a wide open snow slope that has never avalanched to my knowledge and just above the ski resort. They were not up on the more technical areas. The only reason they may have roped up was in case they lost each other in a whiteout, which I may be able to understand (now there is some speculation KevBone!), but it still pulled everyone down, including the dog, which was also tied to the rope or one of the climbers! I may have done the same thing in that instance, but the fact is they should have been able to get off themselves before any of this occurred.

 

In response to one of the other posters, I fully supported the three in December and it had nothing to do with their deaths. I was in support of their ascent, their skills, and their reasoning for being there all beforew the outcome became real. I could have easily been up there as the weather was so stellar and conditions on the N. Face were ideal. Something happened, that we will never know about, that prevented them from descending from the summit under clear skies and they stayed one night too long. I would haze someone just as much whether they died or not. I would expect the same hazing from my friends, climbing partners, and everyone on this board if I screwed up. And I have. My shit stinks just as much as the next. A little taste of constructive criticism and reality check is a good thing and it can act as a wake-up call to most people who may not realize the problems they created by being selfish and blaze about their actions. If there was not any criticism from clmbers to these guys and gals, then maybe they would be educated to think that every time they got in a tough spot they could simply pull out the MLU, prematurely even, and expect a rescue when they should rely on their own sills and instincts to self-rescue.

 

As for this weekend, the campers new bad weather was coming in and chose to stay anyways. Then, once they got into trouble, because of lack of poor judgement and lack of skills necessary to descend, they placed themselves in a position where part of the group fell into White River canyon. Instead of descending down White River Canyon to the snowpark (injury may have prevented this)the groups, now separated, pulled out their trusty MLU and waited to be rescued.

 

Two totally different scenarios entirely.

 

Hopefully they have come to realize the true risk they put themselves and every volunteer and rescuer in from their lack of judgement and care-free attitude towards a Cascades winter storm. I bet they will not take things so lightly next time and fortunately they will be around to live and learn. Some people are not so fortunate.

 

[iain]

I haven't heard the outcome of the hearing and I don't know much about the process. I will do a little more digging today if possible.

 

The first public hearing featured Lim introducing his bill and why he introduced it. We had the inventor/director of the MLU program testify against the bill, along with the president of the Oregon Mountain Rescue Council, past president of the nat'l MRA, and Portland Mountain Rescue. Someone from the Access Fund testified against it. The sheriff of Hood River testified for it, with the reasoning he wanted to do everything possible to protect rescuers. I didn't get a chance to speak but I did an interview with KATU about how rescuers have the final say on what's too dangerous, and these climbers are not forcing us to go get them. We have said no before, and I believe most climbers out there recognize that we may refuse to come get them. The mandatory beacon law may change that relationship and promote a climate of expectation, possibly increasing danger to rescue teams and degrading the concept of self reliance.

 

Due to the fact many who wanted to testify were still up on the mountain for the most recent operation, the committee has offered a second public hearing at 1pm on Thursday 2/22, Hearing Room E, Capitol, Salem. All you have to do is sign in and speak. Or if you prefer, submit written testimony.

 

The committee seems to be pretty open to all ideas and are asking good questions.

 

To get a little historical perspective on Mt. Hood, I point to Lloyd's article for the AAC from 1997:

 

http://www.i-world.net/oma/news/rescue/athearn.html

 

Eerily similar.

 

[Doug]

Excellent link!

[hippos_are_evil]

You say they done a poor job of being smart. This is showing redundance.You never know what each step up there may bring(avy,fall,hit in the head by chunks)This is a risk you take when you climb.Are you a climber? or something else?

 

I believe what she's saying is that while there always going to be unknowns, liky avy, falling, sudden weather, you can do things to mitigate that. (not to sound like Rummy and say 'there are unknown unknowns and known unkowns).

 

If you know there is high avy risk (like this weekend) and a storm is forecasted to come in the next day, it's stupid (my words) to go up there. In regards to being prepared, if you have a GPS you should use it to get you out of trouble, like way points and such, instead of using it to get help to you.

 

I would imagine in a white out that you would be roped up and could send one person out on point and if they fall over a cliff you could arrest (or try to), instead of everyone walking close and falling down together. I don't know the specifics of what happend, but I think you could handle the situation better.

 

My point is that taking unnecessary risks is naive and dangerous.

[catbirdseat]

It seems to me that what got these people in trouble was the failure to use an altimeter properly. They were following a compass bearing that should have lead them to the top of the Palmer Lift. Their route was more or less down hill, which means they were steadily losing elevation as registered by the altimeter. They overshot the top of Palmer because they didn't stop when they reached its known elevation. Had they done so, they might have run back and forth on the contour line until they bumped into a tower. All that was necessary was to find one tower and they could follow a bearing back to the Lodge.

 

It's sort of like what mariners used to do in the old days before chronometers when they had no way to find the longitude. If there was an island they wanted to find, they would drop down to its know latitude and run down that line until they saw the island. They didn't know when exactly the island would be sighted but this method usually worked.

[Dechristo]

this event should be their albatross

[ryland_moore]

Iain thanks for the update. That is excellent that we had so many groups opposing the MLU requirement. Can you let me know how to submit written testimony for this? Thanks.

 

 

[rbw1966]

Anyone read the article in todays Oregonian? The dog owner did an interview at the Lucky Lab with a reporter talking about how the group was on the Today show and are contemplating appearing on Ellen Degeneres. Talk about media glorification.

 

Unless the media reports are incorrect, the most serious injury of any of the fallen climbers was an injured wrist and some cuts. Why these folks were unable to walk out White River Canyon is mistifying to me.

 

These folks are doing a disservice to the climbing community by sensationalizing their rescue in the media. Its pouring gas on the debate over MLU requirements.