Jap Gardens P1 Short Anchors

[TimL]

Somebody decided to remove one of the chain anchors from P1 short. The bolt is still there, but the chain and hanger is missing. Hopefully the person who decided to remove it will put it back. Whoever did it is really friggin stupid.

[TeleRoss]

Just climb the whole first pitch

[Farrgo]

I don't think very many people would be happy if I tried for the whole first pitch instead of the short anchors because it would involve aiders and a couple hours. Mabey I'll try it on a busy afternoon.

[TimL]

Just climb the whole first pitch

 

Done it about a hundred thousand times. But thats not the point. Those anchors have been there forever. Plus the 5.10 short pitch is a great moderate for an area with not too many moderates.

[underworld]

Plus the 5.10 short pitch is a great moderate for an area with not too many moderates.

 

5.10 is moderate??

[TimL]

In reality, with all the people I've see pulling down this summer in Europe, Canada and in the US, yeah, 5.8 to 5.10- is moderate. At least now it is...but maybe 20 years ago it was pretty hard. But...depends who you are, one mans moderate is anothers top end.

[Jens]

I'd donate chain and screwlinks to replace the rig, but I won't be out at index for quite a while. Not cool whoever did it.

[pope]

Those anchors have been there forever. Plus the 5.10 short pitch is a great moderate for an area with not too many moderates.

 

 

Not that long. Ten years? I don't know, but I remember when they weren't there. I also remember climbing the pitch and being puzzled why anybody would place two bolts to protect a wide crack that takes 4" gear and is only 5.10...then I realized somebody had made a "half pitch" climb that tops out at the two bolts.

 

Now might be a good time to reconsider whether an anchor belongs there in the first place. True, one does not find a large number of 5.10 pitches at the LTW, but a little hiking will provide plenty. What's the logic in having an anchor there, half way up a superbly well-protected pitch? Should we put a bolt anchor 15 feet up Classic Crack and provide a short 5.6 pitch that ends just shy of the crux?

 

I didn't remove the gear, but I support finishing this sanitation project.

[bigwallben]

Index can become just like a bit of Spanish Limestone! More bolts means less of those pesky widgets to dick into the rock and take up backpack space. Let's castrate ltw with what the masses really want...convenience!

[RuMR]

come on ben, hyperbole doesn't become you...

[miller]

I guess I see both sides to this issue. And I'd have to say that I'm in favor of having the short anchor there.

 

If for no other reason, it gives people a place to start. For example, Japanese Gardens became overgrown, and was recently recleaned. But the guys who are sending it now will eventually move on, and it'll grow mossy again, because relative newcomers to Index won't have enough pitches like P1 short to keep them coming back. If these "lesser" options are available to "lesser" climbers, they're far more likely to eventually progress to doing the entire route.

 

True, there are a few other decent options at Index, but not many. With the elimination of this option, the 5.10 and under crowd just lost quite a large percentage of what is available for an after work cragging session at Index(i.e. the LTW). I'd rather have routes like this available than have people get bored with doing Toxic Shock and Godzilla all the time and deciding to go to Exit 38 instead...

 

I agree with those who say the anchors are in the middle of the pitch and don't necessarily belong there - there is no arguing with that. But I think they have created a nice option for getting people new to Index psyched on the place and keeping them coming back.

[bigwallben]

Yes, the world has jaded me. That said, I do like to lay on the sarcasm sometimes. World wall today rudy. Carpe Diem.

 

Ben

 

come on ben, hyperbole doesn't become you...

[soulreaper]

It's obvious that the popularity of the route has made it a good focal point for a discussion of this sort, but it might also be useful to dig up, once again, the spectre of ethics in general at Index. Bolts and anchors are EVERYWHERE and no one person is an absolute authority on which are necessary and which are pure concessions to convenience.

The pitch one anchor is, certainly, one such concession. The complication is that it has been in place for long enough to become a tradition and, as such, there is an expectation: Japanese Gardens has a truncated 1st pitch, as do several other pitches at Index. I don't think there should be "short" pitches, ESPECIALLY not to facilitate more use by the masses. Index is challenging for a reason and we should be doing all we can to preserve the challenge. Those of us who climb harder routes there have worked HARD to do so.

That said, the hardware has been in place on that pitch for a long time. I think it's idiotic to pilfer hardware to make a point, as I think the point is better made via a discussion. Unfortunately, it's somewhere between difficult and impossible to have a useful dialogue about this type of thing. In this case, I think the hardware should be replaced. Stealing should be heavily discouraged.

As peripheral issues: replacement of manky hardware; reassessing the need for multiple rappel anchors within mere feet of each other, each containing one or two "good" bolts and 3 or four old 1/4 inch studs protruding from the rock; retrobolting next to perfectly viable natural gear placements, which certainly still occurs.

We've got some issues on our hands and I believe the best way to tackle them, for those of us who care, IS through dialogue, not independent action.

As I wrote in a different thread, education is sometimes helpful. John Middendorf has a website at bigwalls.net that has some great insights as well as technical materials. ASCA has a wealth of up-to-date bolting information.

But, whoever took the chain should just put it back. Make your point by doing laps on the first pitch without clipping the bolt: maybe others will follow by improving upon their climbing abilities.

[flashclimber]

Is the chain still missing? If it is, I have a few sitting around. Ill replace it the next time Im up there if its still missing. Im just curious if it was stolen or someone was making a point? Nobody wants another Cunning Stunt fiasco!

[TeleRoss]

Not enough moderates....really?

Rogers Corner, BOC, Princely Ambitions, Sagittarius, Godzilla, p2 City Park, Aries, GNS.. plus...a short hike over to the Country yeilds a few more.

[Farrgo]

Isn't Sagittarius only moderate because of the short anchors, doesn't the full pitch go at a much harder grade.

[bumbass]

talk talk talk... all I see is people whining about how the anchors are missing, there's no action, no one has replaced them. good for you.

 

there are very much anchors that need to be chopped. short pitch on iron horse, TWO mid anchors on sag, thin fingers, japanese gardens and many more.

 

the inital half of the mid anchor in question was to protect the free connection into TPMV, then some genious decided it'd make a good anchor for moderate.

 

I know I worked hard, dogged, flailed and bought many belayers a lot of beer in my quest to climb harder routes.

 

I've climbed the recently cleaned pitches of japanese, and they're awesome. they're even easier than the first pitch. they deffinately deserve more traffic.

 

mid-anchors are for sport crags, not 30' up a splitter crack.

 

ps, aid climbers should be kicked in the head when found aiding japanese gardens, or any other route that goes free on a regular basis.

[fenderfour]

Free climbers should be kicked in the head when they are climbing a route that was originally an aid line.

[colt45]

Without that anchor, is it still possible to get down JG with a single 60m rope?

 

Many Index classics are "short" versions of a full pitch. eg model worker, iron horse, saggitarius to the 5.11 roof.

[matt_m]

You could lower off the missing mid-anchor with a 60m but you'd only have one bolt. You need a 70m to get down off the FULL P1. Put the chain back on - The mid anchors on many of these routes cause few if any problems. I've only had to wait for the full P1 once because of those mid anchors (which also provide a great way to totally waste whatever energy you have left at the end of the day by running laps on it - NOTE I said END OF DAY - ie, when others are not waiting.) Index is a GREAT PLACE because it has a bit of everything and for the most part, everything is accepted. Slabs, bolted sport, mixed and hard gear only co-exist right near one another. The recent center fold bolting was out of line and quickly rectified because it was obviously wrong. Let's not get index all riled up with damn bolting debates. MY biggest issue recently has been aid climbers CAMPING on JG and Thin fingers ALL DAY on a beautiful sunny sat in the fall. This, in my opinion, is inconsiderate. Hey! Get off THE CLASSIC free routes of the lower wall. It's one thing to camp on City Park but TF and JG for 5 hrs?!?

[slothrop]

Stern Farmer (C1?) is a good alternative to aiding JG. Once you get up past the bolt, any waiting free climbers can just pull your gear up to that point and you can coexist happily.

[TimL]

Not enough moderates....really?

Rogers Corner, BOC, Princely Ambitions, Sagittarius, Godzilla, p2 City Park, Aries, GNS.. plus...a short hike over to the Country yeilds a few more.

 

Don't play that game, for every moderate you name I can name twice or three times as many hard routes. Besides, there are not many more moderates than you listed above.

[pope]

Not enough moderates....really?

Rogers Corner, BOC, Princely Ambitions, Sagittarius, Godzilla, p2 City Park, Aries, GNS.. plus...a short hike over to the Country yeilds a few more.

 

Don't play that game, for every moderate you name I can name twice or three times as many hard routes. Besides, there are not many more moderates than you listed above.

 

Sure, but for every hard route you can name (and who can't?), you can probably find a point 40 feet up at which, if you built an anchor next to the crack, you'd get a "new" moderate free pitch. Does that make Index a better place to climb? Or does that accelerate the transformation of Index into the Exit 38 of US 2 ?

[bwrts]

Not enough moderates....really?

Rogers Corner, BOC, Princely Ambitions, Sagittarius, Godzilla, p2 City Park, Aries, GNS.. plus...a short hike over to the Country yeilds a few more.

 

Don't play that game, for every moderate you name I can name twice or three times as many hard routes. Besides, there are not many more moderates than you listed above.

 

Sure, but for every hard route you can name (and who can't?), you can probably find a point 40 feet up at which, if you built an anchor next to the crack, you'd get a "new" moderate free pitch. Does that make Index a better place to climb? Or does that accelerate the transformation of Index into the Exit 38 of US 2 ?

complete bullshit retoric. just pull the anchor, step up and send or go home and eat wheaties. course, who is to say what is a "pitch"... how long of a rope constitutes one rope length up and anchor me here so to speak....natural features or where billyboy and marysue decide to leave permanent anchor????

bolting next to cracks of any size is gay anyways......perhaps lower down anchor needs to be relocated.

[DCramer]

Iron Horse

 

As far back as I can remember (1970s) the intermediate anchors were in place with the exception of the anchor near the top of Arachnid Arch which I believe only had one bolt until sometime in the early 80s. There was a very old virtual bolt ladder leading from the flared section to the belay on top of the Ringing Flake. When the anchors were last replaced the number of bolts on the route actually dropped due to removal of this funky artifact.

 

10%

 

The intermediate belay bolts have been in place as long as I can remember. (1970s) In the past they have been a perfect place to practice multi-pitch aid techniques.

 

Japanese Gardens

 

Again for as long as I can remember (1970s) there was a funky anchor down and right of the current one. It was a pin and a bolt connected via a bunch of webbing. It was this anchor that inspired Clint to call out the short pitch as a variation. I asked him not to call it out because I am not fond of the whole short pitch thing. The old anchor has been removed.

 

 

Anchors have pretty much been in existence in some form or another for a very long time.

 

Why all the comments about the anchors when there are bolts just to the right of Stern Farmer that seem far more intrusive?