another bolting ethics case

[Thinker]

F'in A, doesn't anyone hunt anymore?

[Otto]

So, chucK, have you arrived at a conclusion you can apply to your case? (which may or may not be "based on a true story" - but we both know it is!)

 

I like 4ord's thoughtful definitions. Our case is definitely a Variation, no?

[billcoe]

Sad to say, I expect that the next step will be wild popularity followed later by a closure. But what can you do?

 

Well, I normally like it when my predictions come true proviing that there are always exceptions to the rule. It's now wildly popular. There have been wall to wall cars there lately. The Ozone guidebook helped with that part. Here's to hoping and keeping it open part!

[ivan]

i hope not, as i also hope the sporto-boys don't like getting cold and go away once beacon closes

[marc_leclerc]

Make routes maybe a bit of a head game but not super dangerous, if you want to be popular... If it is very dangerous than average climbers won't want to do it and if it is bolted every friggin meter than it defies the purpose of lead climbing being 'a mental game'. Lots of slab climbs play with your head but are really not that dangerous, you may slide or run backwards a long ways but you wont get that beat up, heck. you might even give it another go! If there are ledges to hit space the bolts to avoid serious injury, its pretty simple. When bolts are very close together it can be really annoying, the route looks bad and its pretty much like top-roping b/c your waist is almost never higher than your last draw. That is just gay, don't do that.

 

If all you want to to boost your ego and make your route dangerous to show how tough you are than whatever, sand-bag it 3 grades if that boosts your ego too...bitch!

[marc_leclerc]

I like to focus on the movement of the climb with out having to fret about falling into a ledge because I was to lazy to add pro.

 

 

I like to focus on the movement of a slab climb without having to stop to clip, or trip over, closely contrived bolts

 

Yeah, I fell off your route 'Dead Soles' like four hundred times because of that. geez!

 

JK, Dru

 

Oh, also, I think that run-out routes in the alpine are It's a bit homo to go adding bolts to remote alpine routes so that they feel like cragging, I mean seriously, if there is a pitch 2,000 ft off the deck, the belay sucks, there is no pro and the FA' ists didn't place bolts. Either take your chances are rap off.

[pink]

even midnight lightning has a bolt on it.............

[markd]

even midnight lightning has a bolt on it.............

 

a lightning bolt that is.

[pink]

the best kind

 

 

[Bug]

In honor of those who have been banned,

 

 

INDESCRIMINATE BOLTING SUCKS!!!!!!

[JosephH]

Kevin, I'd say where you beg trouble is your constant attempt to serve many [conflicting] masters - attempting to look like a 'bad ass' climber, seeking to be a popular 'route setter', and wanting everything entirely safe. You often talk the former, but the latter two undeniably drive your actions once you hit rock. I feel you are getting a bit clearer relative to wanting everything perfectly safe and, by not such a coincidence, that attracts a following all of its own.

 

The problem I, at least, have is when it comes down to it that is just such a lowest common denominator explotation of rock as to drive the discussion back to what climbing 'is' and why we do it. Now I'm adminttedly an old guy so I explicitly started climbing in part at least to escape the very people you seek to attract - risk-averse suburbanites seeking risk-free [social / group] entertainment. I know, I know, I'm an elitist and misanthropic pig in that respect, but I'm also driven by the notions of, and need for, climbing that's a challenge which explicitly includes a requirement to actively assume and manage risk. This is clearly a moribund and tired concept of climbing which, almost by definition, results in 'wasted rock' when one of us poor sots is the first on something.

 

In general, I think there is just an inherent and inescapable mismatch of goals and intent which is driven by an impedance mismatch of our basic needs. This disparity of needs and intent is such that for me, in the end, I can't help but view the net result of views similar to yours on par with the rollout of another mini-mall or Walmart - they use otherwise 'wasted' space, a lot of folks find them convenient, and many or most might shake your hand for building one. But the rest? Well, as you say, you can't please everyone...

[Bug]

...you can't please everyone ...

 

so let's permanently imprint my opinion on the landscape so everyone has to deal with it.

[kevbone]

Kevin, I'd say where you beg trouble is your constant attempt to serve many [conflicting] masters - attempting to look like a 'bad ass' climber, seeking to be a popular 'route setter', and wanting everything entirely safe.

 

 

Thanks for telling me what my trouble is….I was beginning to wonder.

 

And since you are the one who puts up scary run out climbs that require aid pieces, I would say you are “attempting to look like a bad ass climber”, since I admit I am a pussy climber and don’t have the balls to climb your routes.

 

 

Well, as you say, you can't please everyone...

 

Yup

 

Have a good one.

 

[JosephH]

And since you are the one who puts up scary run out climbs that require aid pieces,

 

Just to be clear, I don't purposefully put up scary routes or routes which require aid pieces for free climbing per se. I put up routes where lines incite me to the point of obsession. I then attempt to climb them in a way that has the lowest impact on rock possible. Another way of saying it might be that I attmept to climb in a manner where the rock and I share the burden of the ascent and I think long and hard before I impose my will on the rock in any permanent way. Don't get me wrong, I do impose my will on the rock at times, but every time I do I consider it as somewhat diminishing my overall efforts and result relative to my 'ultimate' vision of the 'perfect' trad climb. This typically doesn't result in 'popular' routes and that would definitely and explicitly fall into the category of a non-goal for me. But again, that's just my approach and what climbing 'is' all about for me.

[willstrickland]

And since you are the one who puts up scary run out climbs that require aid pieces

 

Umm...how exactly is it an "aid piece" if you aren't aiding on it? Sound like what most people call "pro".

[kevbone]

Some pieces of "pro" were designed for aid climbing (body weight only), and not for free climbing.

[lancegranite]

I prefer to not talk about all my bolts. It’s just easier.

At first I really wanted you to come and see my bolts.

But to be truthful, you brought your friends, and to be honest, some of them are kinda weird, especially that one guy, you know who I talking about...So sorry, You are not allowed, all of you.

That way, I can climb my routes at my cliffs with my friends any time I want, without you or your friends.

Remember those old time explorers you read about in books?

They would set out with some friends and find somewhere new, a place without all the people they did not like... well, that’s kind of like me and my friends.

We have fun without you or your friends! Oh how we laugh and carry on sometimes!

There are no rules here you see… so there is no rule breaking! How easy is that?... I know, it rocks!

I am free of you or your friends telling me what you would have done if you were me, because you are simply not there to do so.

As we both recall, you and your friends were not invited, sorry!

This is because you and your friends have to go find your own cliffs. Sorry, that’s just the way it works.

Here is a little tip: If I tell you or your friends about a cliff, it means me or my friends are long gone.

Please do not tell me or my friends about how great your new cliff is, we do not want to go there anyway.

Our new cliff is indeed far better... without you or your friends.

 

[RuMR]

Some pieces of "pro" were designed for aid climbing (body weight only), and not for free climbing.

lose some weight, lard ass...

[JosephH]

Lance - that was hilarious.

 

Your post was far better than my post even though I didn't read your post at first because you aren't one of us. I'm also glad you don't climb where we climb because then I'd have to try and get at least as creative as you and that would be more difficult then imagining how clever I really am. But, you don't climb where I climb so I don't have to worry about that unless you come to visit. Hopefully you would only visit when I was climbing at my old new place or my new old place. Either way shouldnt' you be starting your own thread instead of posting in this thread where you make our posts look lame just when we were feeling pretty gooud about ourselves.

[billcoe]

I know where Lances' secret place is. It's too far from here. Sure sounds like Shangri La the way they treat each other, probably stay that way till some of us showed up anyway.

[kevbone]

I prefer to not talk about all my bolts. It’s just easier.

At first I really wanted you to come and see my bolts.

But to be truthful, you brought your friends, and to be honest, some of them are kinda weird, especially that one guy, you know who I talking about...So sorry, You are not allowed, all of you.

That way, I can climb my routes at my cliffs with my friends any time I want, without you or your friends.

Remember those old time explorers you read about in books?

They would set out with some friends and find somewhere new, a place without all the people they did not like... well, that’s kind of like me and my friends.

We have fun without you or your friends! Oh how we laugh and carry on sometimes!

There are no rules here you see… so there is no rule breaking! How easy is that?... I know, it rocks!

I am free of you or your friends telling me what you would have done if you were me, because you are simply not there to do so.

As we both recall, you and your friends were not invited, sorry!

This is because you and your friends have to go find your own cliffs. Sorry, that’s just the way it works.

Here is a little tip: If I tell you or your friends about a cliff, it means me or my friends are long gone.

Please do not tell me or my friends about how great your new cliff is, we do not want to go there anyway.

Our new cliff is indeed far better... without you or your friends.

 

Thanks for chiming in Russ......

[marc_leclerc]

Some pieces of "pro" were designed for aid climbing (body weight only), and not for free climbing.

 

My buddy fell a few meters onto a RURP and Ive slipped and been caught by a tiny aid stopper.. they actually work sometimes.

[Off_White]

And since you are the one who puts up scary run out climbs that require aid pieces

 

Umm...how exactly is it an "aid piece" if you aren't aiding on it? Sound like what most people call "pro".

 

Will, I think Kevin is referring to the use of crack 'n ups as free protection.

 

Lance, you're a pretty funny guy. Too bad you're not my friend, or I might actually like you.

[Peter_Puget]

I think the larger sizes of Crack N Ups (3,4,5?) were designed for free climbing. At least that's why I bought them. That said a well place small Crack N Up would be much much better than a #0 or #1 RP any day of the week.

[willstrickland]

I got what Kevin was referring to, I just don't agree with his premise. And there are plenty of ways to make small "aid" gear better without having to start drilling. Use multiples, eq em and put a screamer on it, etc. I fully subscribe to the "not every route is for every climber" school of thought.

 

And Puget is right, the weak point on small wires is usually the cable itself. Crack n ups are basically a hand placed pin, steel, slung with cord or webbing and would be much stronger. I'd much sooner take a ripper onto one of those than #3 or smaller BD nuts.

 

The whole "wasted rock" argument is silly. There are currently more safe, closely bolted sport routes in the west than anyone could climb in a lifetime, and enough safe gear routes in the NW that are being reclaimed by moss and munge beacuse they don't get climbed. But the grid bolters always want another, and another.