Cobra_Commander Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 I often wonder if Kevin actually believes what he is saying, or if he is so bored at work that he throws this stuff around. I seriously doubt Kevin cannot appreciate a bold trad lead, and the enjoyment and solitude that comes without having close bolted lines everywhere. Joseph can be a bit of a pontiff at times, but I found it hard not be stirred looking up to the left of the east face and see that lonely piece of gear way up in the roof. Bolts would ruin the experience out there and I think Kevin knows that. I sure hope so, at least. You just have to drive by the Ozone parking lot to see what that kind of bolting does to an area. And that's not necessarily bad! I can enjoy a social day in the corridor at Red Rocks, but it's so nice to get away and explore in the canyons, and a have a real adventure. And it is GREAT that there are so many climbs I can look at and know that I, and maybe no one will have the courage to ever repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 I think the larger sizes of Crack N Ups (3,4,5?) were designed for free climbing. At least that's why I bought them. That said a well place small Crack N Up would be much much better than a #0 or #1 RP any day of the week. They were designed for aid, but are beefy enough for free climbing. I took a solid thirty-footer onto a #3 in Eldo back in the day so I'm good with them. I think a lot of it all has to do with how "into pro" you are as well. I happen to find every placement a creative gift and playtime - the more technical the better at times. For me trad climbing is a matter of three questions: can I see it; can I climb it, can I protect it. I love it when there is challenge and and 'art' in all three. And I just dig it when pro gets small, technical, and demanding to the point where modding gear or variously pre-slicing screamers can make the difference between a placement holding or not. I do certainly get that some folks can view the whole pro thing as tedious or a PITA; I'm just am oddly wired such that it all really fascinates me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 I like the way you think, joseph... one of my pet peeves is a "partial sport climb"...an occasional bolt or two on primarily trad protected route makes sense...however climbing something with 10 QD's and two pieces of gear is stupid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 however climbing something with 10 QD's and two pieces of gear is stupid... Are you suggesting you place bolts next to cracks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 (edited) yes kevin, in fact, i think i'm going to head to indian creek with a portable generator and a hilti and go to town... what do you think i'm saying, dumbass? If something required 10 QD's, its unlikely that its a continuous crack system... Don't you have to go watch some huge, horrifying, 10-15 foot "whipper"?? Or add a bolt to a runout scary 10 foot chunk to an anchor? Edited November 18, 2008 by RuMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 yes kevin, in fact, i think i'm going to head to indian creek with a portable generator and a hilti and go to town... what do you think i'm saying, dumbass? If something required 10 QD's, its unlikely that its a continuous crack system... Don't you have to go watch some huge, horrifying, 10-15 foot "whipper"?? Or add a bolt to a runout scary 10 foot chunk to an anchor? I am sorry Rudy. This post makes no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 figures it doesn't make any sense to you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 I often wonder if Kevin actually believes what he is saying, or if he is so bored at work that he throws this stuff around. Why does it matter? And what stuff would you be referring too? I seriously doubt Kevin cannot appreciate a bold trad lead, and the enjoyment and solitude that comes without having close bolted lines everywhere. Why do you care whether I can appreciate it? Its just the internet dude…..let it go….. Joseph can be a bit of a pontiff at times, JH….you gonna take that? but I found it hard not be stirred looking up to the left of the east face and see that lonely piece of gear way up in the roof. Bolts would ruin the experience out there and I think Kevin knows that. I sure hope so, at least. Why would you think I would place bolts at Beacon? You just have to drive by the Ozone parking lot to see what that kind of bolting does to an area. Sounds like a personal problem. You see it as a bad think (that tells me you are old school and out of touch). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 Kevin, have you scheduled yourself for that retroactive abortion yet?? If not, please do so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 Kevin, have you scheduled yourself for that retroactive abortion yet?? If not, please do so... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 Why would you think I would place bolts at Beacon? You have repeatedly suggested it would be a good idea. You just have to drive by the Ozone parking lot to see what that kind of bolting does to an area. Sounds like a personal problem. You see it as a bad think (that tells me you are old school and out of touch). I like people. If you can't understand the problems associated with 20 cars parked at a location like that, you might be the one who is out of touch. There's nothing "old school" about not wanting humanity spilling out of every nook and cranny, and PRG personalities filling the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted November 18, 2008 Share Posted November 18, 2008 I like the way you think, joseph... one of my pet peeves is a "partial sport climb"...an occasional bolt or two on primarily trad protected route makes sense...however climbing something with 10 QD's and two pieces of gear is stupid... Climbing something with 2 gear placements in between 10 bolts is reasonable if there are two good places for gear. Placing bolts next to good gear placements just so Rudy won't have to bring two TCUs up a climb with him, however, is both stupid and lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 I like people. If you can't understand the problems associated with 20 cars parked at a location like that, you might be the one who is out of touch. There's nothing "old school" about not wanting humanity spilling out of every nook and cranny, and PRG personalities filling the air. Cant please everyone. If you dont like it....dont climb there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 I like the way you think, joseph... one of my pet peeves is a "partial sport climb"...an occasional bolt or two on primarily trad protected route makes sense...however climbing something with 10 QD's and two pieces of gear is stupid... Climbing something with 2 gear placements in between 10 bolts is reasonable if there are two good places for gear. Placing bolts next to good gear placements just so Rudy won't have to bring two TCUs up a climb with him, however, is both stupid and lazy. There's an opening in the appointment slot at the retro-active abortion clinic right after kev's...i suggest you make an appointment... oh, and while you're at it...why dont'ca eat a bag of dicks??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 maybe if you carried gear to the crag with you more often you'd get rid of that pot belly, ru! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 DON'T MISS THAT APPOINTMENT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 fatty! So how many gear placements must a route have in your opinion before it's ok to have a mix of bolts and gear anyway? Three? How far apart? Do you measure it all out with a measuring tape? I heard you have a special one that's got the 5 inch mark labeled "8" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Jesus christ guys.....why you got to be so black and white? I put a route up with all bolts with one gear placement. It would have been stupid to place a bolt within inches of a perfect crack that you can see from the ground. Come on down and give it a go....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Jesus christ guys.....why you got to be so black and white? I put a route up with all bolts with one gear placement. It would have been stupid to place a bolt within inches of a perfect crack that you can see from the ground. Come on down and give it a go....... Don't try to reason with them Kev. That will only piss them off more. Don't try to expose the rotting and disease ridden corpse of that vile ne'r do well, "COMPROMISE" either. He deserved his unsavory end. Read carefully the title of this thread and be warned. Woe to all yea who enter here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Spray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 There's a very good reason that establishing a 10 bolt + 1 piece cragging route is stupid...many people are going to look up and see a line of bolts and go "oh, it's a sport route" and not take any gear, especially if the gear placement is high and thin and thus hard to see from the ground. And to think that one extra bolt in a line of 10 is going to make any kind of aesthetic or ethical difference is just kidding yourself. You're already defacing the rock, go ahead and do a decent job of it. Where you draw the line is subjective. You can't just say at some "split", like 90/10 70/30 whatever, that it's ok to fully bolt it. Is the area characterized by lots of routes that are mixed bolts and gear, like many routes on Mt. Lemmon and Josh and the climber would be expecting something like that? Is it a mostly bolted pitch on a long multipitch route that is otherwise gear protected so that you're carrying a rack anyway? Is it a staunchly trad cliff that seeks to minimize bolts at all costs? And if so, why the hell are you puitting up a 10bolt climb there in the first place unless it's a 230' slab pitch drilled on lead? Chances are, if you just changed the spacing/location of the bolts when establishing the 10 bolt+1 piece rig you could have it fully bolted without placing a bolt next to a crack/gear placement. Wouldn't you love to show up to a sport crag like the gallery in Red Rock and see a decription: Dick Wrenching MegaClassic***** 5.12d, 230' Pro: 14 bolts, #3 Frost nut filed down/beveled on the right side, smallest leeper cam hook. Uh, yeah I've got that on my rack of sport draws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 fatty! So how many gear placements must a route have in your opinion before it's ok to have a mix of bolts and gear anyway? Three? How far apart? Do you measure it all out with a measuring tape? I heard you have a special one that's got the 5 inch mark labeled "8" at least i have one that's measurable, ya stupid bitch... I like a bolt at my ankle, one at my hip, and then go for that oh so strenuous clip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 There's a very good reason that establishing a 10 bolt + 1 piece cragging route is stupid...many people are going to look up and see a line of bolts and go "oh, it's a sport route" and not take any gear, especially if the gear placement is high and thin and thus hard to see from the ground. And to think that one extra bolt in a line of 10 is going to make any kind of aesthetic or ethical difference is just kidding yourself. You're already defacing the rock, go ahead and do a decent job of it. Where you draw the line is subjective. You can't just say at some "split", like 90/10 70/30 whatever, that it's ok to fully bolt it. Is the area characterized by lots of routes that are mixed bolts and gear, like many routes on Mt. Lemmon and Josh and the climber would be expecting something like that? Is it a mostly bolted pitch on a long multipitch route that is otherwise gear protected so that you're carrying a rack anyway? Is it a staunchly trad cliff that seeks to minimize bolts at all costs? And if so, why the hell are you puitting up a 10bolt climb there in the first place unless it's a 230' slab pitch drilled on lead? Chances are, if you just changed the spacing/location of the bolts when establishing the 10 bolt+1 piece rig you could have it fully bolted without placing a bolt next to a crack/gear placement. Wouldn't you love to show up to a sport crag like the gallery in Red Rock and see a decription: Dick Wrenching MegaClassic***** 5.12d, 230' Pro: 14 bolts, #3 Frost nut filed down/beveled on the right side, smallest leeper cam hook. Uh, yeah I've got that on my rack of sport draws. Nice Will! I wouldn't have bothered trying to explain it to the simpletons...but you did a great job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 It would have been stupid to place a bolt within inches of a perfect crack that you can see from the ground.[/ many people are going to look up and see a line of bolts and go "oh, it's a sport route" and not take any gear, especially if the gear placement is high and thin and thus hard to see from the ground. Please see the quote above. If someone thinks its just a sport route in an area with NO GUIDE BOOK (until now) I cant help them….especially since the entire area is notorious for being a mixed climbing area. Climb at your own risk……before there was a guide book some people complained because they did exactly what you described….saw some bolts and “assumed” it was a sport climb…..that is there fault….not the developers fault. When you leave the ground in an area that has no guide book….it might be in your best interest to bring up a few pieces of gear. You also have choices when you get you the last bolt and did not bring a rack…..go for it….or lower off and get a rack. You make the choice. Like I said…..climb at your own risk. And to think that one extra bolt in a line of 10 is going to make any kind of aesthetic or ethical difference is just kidding yourself. I disagree. Every climb is different. The climb I am referring too had one absolutely beautify crack in it. A perfect green .75 camalot BOMBER! The crack happens to be right where you would put a bolt. And like I said …..you can see it from the ground. I talked about this with other climbers and developers. I/We could not justify blatantly bolting a crack. And when I say “a waste of rock” for what ever reason…..and someone tells me……”if you don’t like it, go climb something else”……well right back at ya, if you don’t like it, go climb something else. Just so you know the guide description for this climb states “gear placement is between 3rd and 4th bolts”, pretty well laid out. go ahead and do a decent job of it. I did. Is the area characterized by lots of routes that are mixed bolts and gear, yes . Wouldn't you love to show up to a sport crag like the gallery in Red Rock and see a decription: Dick Wrenching MegaClassic***** 5.12d, 230' Pro: 14 bolts, #3 Frost nut filed down/beveled on the right side, smallest leeper cam hook. No I would not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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