another bolting ethics case

[G-spotter]

If I trip over a bolt, I could hurt myself. Therefore less bolts is better Remember the bolts are there for only one reason: someone was a chicken.

 

If a route has too many bolts, I can't climb it. End of story.

[AlpineK]

That's a stupid argument.

 

Let's say that you and your gf/wife decide to go camping at a nice spot you know about it's beautiful and quiet, but it isn't a developed camp ground. Well about an hour after you get there and set up camp a group of 10 rednecks show up and start drinking, swearing, playing death metal and riding around on dirt bikes. You can't tell them to be quiet because they will probably beat the shit out of you, you can't call the cops because it's 20 miles to the nearest pay phone and even if you could call them they couldn't do anything because you aren't in a developed camp ground. So you either have to put up with the bullshit or drive for hours to who knows where to find another place to camp.

 

Basically the rednecks ruined your enjoyment of a nice spot.

 

I've heard the argument that you don't have to clip those extra bolts but it's bullshit. Just the fact that those bolts are there wrecks the climb. I've done a number of slab routes where half the adventure of the climb is not knowing exactly where the route goes. If you leave a trail of bolts you take away part of the adventure.

 

Climbing is dangerous, and that's part of the excitement of doing it, but you want to dumb it down so nobody breaks a nail.

[billcoe]

I think all of us come to this discussion with big blinders on based on our past experinces.

 

FYI, Kev is cleaning and bolting an area with some others where a couple of natural lines were done with nuts for pro early on and nothing else for years and years.......and years.

 

He saw that the dominant ethic of ground up drilling bolts would not work as well in this area as the rap down and "craft" a line that will be enjoyed by many who follow in the later years.

 

They're doing a pretty nice job at it too, I think you'd all really enjoy the area he's developing with a few others if you jumped on some of the routes.

 

BUT, back to the theroretical discussion......I'm not sure there is a correct answer here, BUT one way to sidestep all the arguments and acrimony that always seem to accompany this kind of question is to touch base with one of the old F*eds who put up the origonal line in question and invite them in with you to do the FA of your brand new, "crafted with quality" close to the origonal line variation route, if you get buy in, you're done discussing everything except who gets the sharp end.

 

It still might not be enough for some. When McGowen put up a line 4 feet from the SE Corner slab pitch, a classic trad route at Beacon, the bolts must have lasted 15 min till they were chopped. However, that slab pitch may be one of the best pitches out at Beacon, and was the origonal line up that side, so maybe it's not comparable.

 

Good luck Chuck K!

[kevbone]

Bill, your rad. Im heading out to Jimmycliff, if you up for it.

[sexual_chocolate]

yeah man, talk to the oldsters. would you like it if something bolted a line right up the middle of a route that you necked out 15 years ago?

 

scrub the old line and climb it, then paint a little direction map at the base so people don't get cornfused as to where to go.

[billcoe]

Bill, your rad. Im heading out to Jimmycliff,

 

Thanks Kev: I will definately catch you next time.

 

I drove by Saturday @6pm and was thinking of you. Didn't see your vehical though, but I had someone with me who did not know of the area and we were both fairly toasted, crispy and burnt out anyway from a day of climbing and that obligatory single pint of beer at Skamania Lodge.

 

We should hook up before your little one arrives with the winter rains.

 

Say hi to JimO too.

[ken4ord]

I am glad not every bolting ethics case get's it own thread, otherwise......who knows. Really though any time a route is altered from it original state is an individual case. Each route is different even if it was put up in the same time, by the same people, in the same way, in the same area.

 

I agree with what AlpineK it is stupid to think that you could choose not to clip the bolts in order to keep the same feel of the original route. That is not going to happen, you will always know in the back of your mind that if all else fails there is a bolt you can clip.

 

I also liked what hanman said. If you really do want to improve the route cleaning the original line might be the best place to start.

 

It was said by a couple of you the importance of contacting the original FA team before making any changing (rebolting, retrobolting or variation). To me this not like going to the teacher asking if you can go to the bathroom, but it is more less respect for the FA. They established a cool looking line or at least you are thinking so as well, otherwise you probably leave well enough alone, so why not give them the opportunity to give their 2 cents worth. Some of them might be egotistical assholes and say if you can't put your big boy pants on and do it in the same style then you shouldn't be on it. If that is the case there is plenty of other rock out there, so just wait for the old regime to kill over. I think most people will be pretty reasonable as long as you are reasonable how you want to alter the route they established and it is in line with the local ethics.

 

So archenemy, here is my interpetations of what the differences are:

Rebolting, is replacing the bolts in number and in the same places as the first ascentionist originally did. Changing the bolt type such as 1/4 to 3/8 is ok, though it does alter the mental feel of a route. On the east coast there was a lot of routes I remember doing that were 1/4 inch button head spinners that use to scare me, when they got rebolted with shiney 3/8 bolts it seemed to make them so much easier.

Retrobolting, is placing bolts where you see fit on an established route. This may include placing the same number of bolts, but changing the location of the bolts or adding more bolts. Changing the location of bolts on a ground up route, and placing bolts in locations that was too difficult of location to place the bolt from can alter the route significantly, or as AK says, it dumbs it down.

Variation is doing a line seperate from the original route. A variation can be a complete pitch on multipitch climb or a section. Again establishing a variation can alter a complete climb significantly. I think in this case where the variation is with fixed gear it is important that it does not change the aspect of the original route. So adding a variation bolt line, I would want to make sure you can't clip the first variation bolt unless you were commiting to the variation. A variation where there is extra gear that was not available in the original line, is a retrobolted route. In my mind an exception I think with doing a variation and contacting the first ascenionist, would be if you were uping the anty. If you doing harder or less protected variation, then to me it might not be so important to track down the first ascentionist, but it never is a bad thing to contact them or at least try.

[Drederek]

Lets pretend this thread is about Dreamer/Safe Sex for a minute. The start to Dreamer is pretty low angle and looking out there its tough to tell if theres going to be a crack in the shallow away facing dihedral. On the other hand you can see two or three bolts heading up to what must be a good stance (Safe Sex). If you haven't been here before you'll most likely clip up the first pitch and have a great day. A few will go looking and have a great time as well. But I'd guess the majority of peeps (including me)are heading up Safe Sex so the effect of the bolts was to usurp the original line. I have not yet climbed Dreamer entire because my main focus was to get my partners to the top. So I don't know whether I've missed out on a good pitch or been saved from a runout horrorshow. I do know the Safe Sex start is very enjoyable semi-runout slab.

As for Epi I don't believe the FA's would have tried that bombay OW crack when they could runnout a 5.7 chickhead slab instead.

Your folks are lookin good Off!

[markd]

it gets overgrown and nobody climbs and it becomes wasted rock. This is the case with several climbs in my area.

 

YOUR AREA? since when did it become, "your area?"

 

who's routes are you talking about?

 

I have put up over a dozen climbs

 

just because you monopolized an area and grid bolted it, doesn't give you much ground to stand on.

 

every other developer at that crag, disagrees with you and your style of doing new routes, and you know this!

[AlpineK]

FYI, Kev is cleaning and bolting an area with some others where a couple of natural lines were done with nuts for pro early on and nothing else for years and years.......and years.

 

He saw that the dominant ethic of ground up drilling bolts would not work as well in this area as the rap down and "craft" a line that will be enjoyed by many who follow in the later years.

 

They're doing a hell of a skillful job at it too, I think you'd all really enjoy the area he's developing with a few others if you jumped on some of the routes.

 

Speaking of blinders It looks like from Mark's comment above there is at least a lack of agreement whether Kev is, "crafting," routes or gridbolting.

 

From my perspective I'm not caught up in whether someone hangs or not to place a bolt. All I want to see is bolts are well placed and kept to a minimum. I know that's open to interpretation, but too often recently I've climbed routes where I was skipping at least every other bolt. Clearly those routes had too many bolts.

 

You'd think people setting routes would be happy to hear that they don't have to work as hard or spend as much on bolts.

[archenemy]

So archenemy, here is my interpetations of what the differences are:

Rebolting, is replacing the bolts in number and in the same places as the first ascentionist originally did. Changing the bolt type such as 1/4 to 3/8 is ok, though it does alter the mental feel of a route. On the east coast there was a lot of routes I remember doing that were 1/4 inch button head spinners that use to scare me, when they got rebolted with shiney 3/8 bolts it seemed to make them so much easier.

Retrobolting, is placing bolts where you see fit on an established route. This may include placing the same number of bolts, but changing the location of the bolts or adding more bolts. Changing the location of bolts on a ground up route, and placing bolts in locations that was too difficult of location to place the bolt from can alter the route significantly, or as AK says, it dumbs it down.

Variation is doing a line seperate from the original route. A variation can be a complete pitch on multipitch climb or a section. Again establishing a variation can alter a complete climb significantly. I think in this case where the variation is with fixed gear it is important that it does not change the aspect of the original route. So adding a variation bolt line, I would want to make sure you can't clip the first variation bolt unless you were commiting to the variation. A variation where there is extra gear that was not available in the original line, is a retrobolted route. In my mind an exception I think with doing a variation and contacting the first ascenionist, would be if you were uping the anty. If you doing harder or less protected variation, then to me it might not be so important to track down the first ascentionist, but it never is a bad thing to contact them or at least try.

Thank you for this information--I appreciate it!

[crimper]

I want to provide some background to this discussion. I know Kevbone, Markd and Bill Coe personally. I have been a first-hand witness to most of the routes put up at the area being described; I probably belayed Kevbone on half his first ascents. I know Kevbone, I like Kevbone, he's a friend of mine. (even if this post won't sound that way)

 

But I know he pushes the ethical limit, though I think he mainly does so to get a rise out of people.

 

For example, he polled local climbers on whether it was acceptable to bolt a climb at Broughton Bluff (Mr. Bentley) that is currently either a toprope problem or a bold solo (the route is an 11plus in the guide, I believe). He posed the question in such a way that he wanted people to feel that it was currently a "waste of rock" and that just because Chris Hill and others had soloed it did not mean he should then be prevented from leading it in a way he would feel safe leading it. In my opinion he made it seem that the soloers (and not him) were the selfish ones, because their actions had made it an ethical "no-no" for him too bolt it, when all he really wanted to do was make it safe and "open to the masses". Luckily, and not surprisingly, those polled told him "No" and so he never bolted it.

 

I included that anecdote because I want people to understand two things: first, this is the ethical "place" where kevbone comes from; second, kevbone also has not added bolts or otherwise tampered with existing routes. (though it's possible that someone can correct me on this; i'm talking to you, stewart and markd). So he has not crossed the line and actually added bolts to existing routes, but at the same time, I think it's important that Kevbone is told in no uncertain terms that his attempts to attacks the ethical foundation of climbing - unconditional respect for the methods employed by the first ascentionist -are shallow, myopic, ridiculous and should be firmly rejected. Bold first ascents are not a waste of rock, they are tangible pieces of history and should be cherished and protected by the climbers of today. Standards should be improved upon, not degraded simply because it's really easy to rapbolt at quasi-urban crags.

 

Postscript: markd and i were at a crag near bend the other day and observed a guy rapbolting directly across an established all-gear crack climb. We stopped him after he had only drilled one bolt, and pointed out that the tickmarks for his planned bolts were within 2-3 feet of the crack and in fact crossed the crack. we were polite and explained the ethical violation he was about to commit. we got the impression he would choose to yank the bolt and cvhoose another line for his first-ever first ascent. wrong. he added 3-4 more bolts. This is the mindset that gets perpetuated, and the actions that result, when opinions like kevbone's are not firmly repudiated in a public forum. now someone's got to chop those bolts to send a message.

[kevbone]

Mark, I did not grid bolt anything and you know it. As far as monopolizing. The rock is open access to anyone, in other words the other climbers in the area had all last year to come out and put a route up and they choose to go climbing instead of putting in a ton of hard labor cleaning and cleaning and cleaning so I and you can enjoy new climbs, I bolted them in how I see fit, being I am the first person to climb and clean it. Now that the crag is out in the public eye, (at least 20 to 25 new climbers went there in the last 2 weeks)Im getting feed back to some of the routes there. I would say 95% of the climbers think its was bolted great. Some of them walk up and shake my hand thanking me for the well bolted lines and just the hard work it must have been cleaning for a year. I let them know It was not just me who worked out there. And I dont take them to just my climbs, for all the climbs there are good. So In retrospect, Im getting the feeling that we (all who helped in anyway) did a bang up job out there. For this seems to be the consensus.

 

As far as my area, Portland.

 

I would and have never touched another persons route in anyway.

 

As far as ethics: I think we can all agree you dont touch another persons route, right? Then whats the big deal!

 

 

PS, I never said "Bold first accents are a waist of rock"

I said when A route gets done with crazy runouts and is super bold with no pro ( mostly in the 70's and 80's) then never gets done again, then gets overgrown, this is a waist of rock.

Edited June 12, 2006 by kevbone

[DirtyHarry]

Postscript: markd and i were at a crag near bend the other day and observed a guy rapbolting directly across an established all-gear crack climb. We stopped him after he had only drilled one bolt, and pointed out that the tickmarks for his planned bolts were within 2-3 feet of the crack and in fact crossed the crack. we were polite and explained the ethical violation he was about to commit. we got the impression he would choose to yank the bolt and cvhoose another line for his first-ever first ascent. wrong. he added 3-4 more bolts. This is the mindset that gets perpetuated, and the actions that result, when opinions like kevbone's are not firmly repudiated in a public forum. now someone's got to chop those bolts to send a message.

 

Unfortunately, I think this type of shit is becoming more and more common. Seems to be happening quite a lot in the Icicle and other 11worth areas. While I enjoy and respect a well-bolted route, most new routes (put up or put "down" as the case may be) that I have climbed here have bolts near available natural protection. Some routes are worse offenders than others. For example, look at the route "Orange Peel," a very cool 10b trad line on Careno Crag (which Kramer gives 0 stars BTW). Someone bolted a not very good sport route that crosses over Orange Peel and shares the finish. However, the sport route developer placed a bolt right next to a perfect hand rail crack with perfect gear at the place where the routes intersect. A Bolt on an already esatablished trad climb with PERFECT gear!!! What is even stupider, is that from there the sport route and trad route finish up via an akwark roof / fist crack move(very cool)that requires gear to protect anyway!!

 

I wish people who are into crag development would think a little bit more before they drill.

Edited June 12, 2006 by DirtyHarry

[DirtyHarry]

PS, I never said "Bold first accents are a waist of rock"

I said when A route gets done with crazy runouts and is super bold with no pro ( mostly in the 70's and 80's) then never gets done again, then gets overgrown, this is a waist of rock.

 

That's your opinion, and that is a valid one. But I don't think that it automatically gives you (or anyone) a license to bolt such a route.

[billcoe]

I want to provide some background to this discussion. I know Kevbone, Markd and Bill Coe personally. I have been a first-hand witness to most of the routes put up at the area being described; I probably belayed Kevbone on half his first ascents. I know Kevbone, I like Kevbone, he's a friend of mine. (even if this post won't sound that way)

 

But I know he pushes the ethical limit, though I think he mainly does so to get a rise out of people.

 

For example, he polled local climbers on whether it was acceptable to bolt a climb at Broughton Bluff (Mr. Bentley) that is currently either a toprope problem or a bold solo (the route is an 11plus in the guide, I believe). He posed the question in such a way that he wanted people to feel that it was currently a "waste of rock" and that just because Chris Hill and others had soloed it did not mean he should then be prevented from leading it in a way he would feel safe leading it. In my opinion he made it seem that the soloers (and not him) were the selfish ones, because their actions had made it an ethical "no-no" for him too bolt it, when all he really wanted to do was make it safe and "open to the masses". Luckily, and not surprisingly, those polled told him "No" and so he never bolted it.

 

I included that anecdote because I want people to understand two things: first, this is the ethical "place" where kevbone comes from; second, kevbone also has not added bolts or otherwise tampered with existing routes. (though it's possible that someone can correct me on this; i'm talking to you, stewart and markd). So he has not crossed the line and actually added bolts to existing routes, but at the same time, I think it's important that Kevbone is told in no uncertain terms that his attempts to attacks the ethical foundation of climbing - unconditional respect for the methods employed by the first ascentionist -are shallow, myopic, ridiculous and should be firmly rejected. Bold first ascents are not a waste of rock, they are tangible pieces of history and should be cherished and protected by the climbers of today. Standards should be improved upon, not degraded simply because it's really easy to rapbolt at quasi-urban crags.

 

Postscript: markd and i were at a crag near bend the other day and observed a guy rapbolting directly across an established all-gear crack climb. We stopped him after he had only drilled one bolt, and pointed out that the tickmarks for his planned bolts were within 2-3 feet of the crack and in fact crossed the crack. we were polite and explained the ethical violation he was about to commit. we got the impression he would choose to yank the bolt and cvhoose another line for his first-ever first ascent. wrong. he added 3-4 more bolts. This is the mindset that gets perpetuated, and the actions that result, when opinions like kevbone's are not firmly repudiated in a public forum. now someone's got to chop those bolts to send a message.

 

 

Hola crimper. You getting paid by the word?

 

Interesting points, all valid and well thought out. I really thought Royal Robbins had some well thought out points about this as well, several of which you mention above.

 

But so the board knows, anyone wants to add bolts on any climb I've ever done have at it.

 

I probably should have done it earlier but was too lazy. Anyone who's ever climbed with me knows this.

 

Conversely, I will never add a bolt to an existing line for the reasons crimper described above. You can usually just meander down the way and find a safe, well crafted route somewhere close, if you are looking for that. (or often just toprope the line like Crimper mentioned).

 

I'd like to see folks just generally show respect for history, others and location.

 

Smith and Yosemite, for instance, have had wildly divergent development issues and attitudes. I just climbed a great new bolted route at Smith (5.8) with John F and PDK where we were basically skipping every other bolt (or 2 ) and running pitches together as well.

 

You'd never see that kind of thing, and would not want to see the acrimony, of a rap-bolted route which may in fact even be overbolted by Kevins standards (it almost seemed that there are bolts at your feet and waist and you can clip another one standing right there), at a place like Yos. I love trad, but I have to admit I liked the Wayyyyyyy overbolted 5.8. It was good movement and body feel and we were moving effecintly as 3. Very enjoyable day and route. Just skip the bolts you don't want to clip I guess.

 

I think the rock police just wore me out last decade or 3. Now I just want to climb and would like to see folks respect others.

 

Take care (but thats me, your results may vary):

 

Bill

[markd]

kevin-

gridbolting=bolting all climbable rock.

 

are you trying to tell me that you didn't try and bolt all the climbable rock? how many gear routes did you put up? any?

 

also, i thought we all agreed, no more bolts, yet your putting up another bolted route as we speak.

 

meanwhile stewart has done ANOTHER all gear climb, yesterday.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2006 by markd

[kevbone]

Your right and I would never touch anyones routes. In the same respect I would hope no one would touch one of mine.

 

I will end by saying this:

 

I have learned a great deal about putting routes up in the last year and a half. I have learned you cant please everyone. As soon as know, if you add a bolt, someone out there wont like it and will bitch about it, and another group will praise you for it. I have ceased to try to please everyone, for this will never happen.

I stand behind every bolt I have placed. And every route I have put up or been a part of. I you dont like it, go climb something else.

[kevbone]

Mark, Stewart placed a pin on rappell, so I guess it was not all gear!

I did try to do anything out there, I respect to bolting all the climbable rock, I just took it as it came. I personaly dont think much of the gear out ther.

I another thing, I stated the first month I showed up out there. I was only going to put up sport routes. You act like gear climbing is the only climbing. I disagree. That place is a sport climbing crag, with a few good placement hear and there. Im not the only one who put bolts where you MIGHT be able to throw in some crapy gear.

I personaly have climbed 4 routes there onsight WITH bolts and did not clip any of them. So if your going to be strict, you should adress all the culprets.

[markd]

well at least we agree on the gridbolting, as you did, and do, try to bolt all the rock.

 

what about the no new bolts ethic, that you, crimper, stewart, kevin r and myself agreed upon? why are new bolts still going in?

 

kevin, not sure what you mean by, "you act like gear climbing is the only climbing." you know that i put up sport, trad, mixed and multi pitch routes - so obviously, i don't think that.

 

i just don't agree that basalt, is the arena, for bolting the crap out of every square inch of rock.

 

lastly, you know that i'm not just giving you crap, i would say this to anyone, who was over-bolting a crag, that i have a significant amount of time and energy in.

[billcoe]

Someone PMed me to ask what was going on here. By now it sounds like Chuck K must have enough info to make an informed decision on his origonal question.

 

I'm a little surprised by Markd's posts. I have a lot of respect for what he's been doing and the level he climbs at and the routes he's put up.

 

-but-

 

Concerning the area in question that hijacked Chucks thread. I might have been the 3rd person to climb out there (as far as I know). Went out couple of times, we did some trad lines from the ground up, no previewing, inspection etc (although Jim may have rappelled all over the place when he first found it), no bolts in any route or or top for anchors. We walked back around from the top to the base and belayed off of trees at the top for anchors.

 

Between the loose rock, dirt, poison oak and unascetic nature of the rock, somewhat a lack of cracks I guess - my memory is that very little was done out there until fairly recently.

 

With the addition of bolts, there is here-to-for lots of real sweet climbs where before there was none or near none that anybody really wanted to do.

 

I'm not a sport climber. Not a gym climber either. To me, this area looks like a significantly better place for the efforts. Those efforts have been top down, cleaning and rock removal, and bolts have been well thought out and well placed.

 

Bolts have their place, and that place is obviously not everywhere. Places like on glacier point apron. And here.

Bolts fit in well at this cliff with it's general lack of cracks (I said general, there are some cracks yes, I've done some) and it's variety of nice incut face holds. Argueing a bolt here or a bolt there to me, or even lots of bolts here or there, doesn't detract from the fact that for all climbers, this place is better off for many reasons.

 

I drove past on Sat. coming back in after climbing some sweet cracks a little further out. We did 6 routes and none of them had bolts on the routes. (anchors on top) It seems like there are plenty of lonely quiet little places around without bolts if somebody wants to head there.

 

I've heard maybe 2 people concerned that Kev will now start bolting at Beacon. I'm sure that is not the case and it's not what is being discussed here either.

 

So with that I say, good job Kevin, Stewart, Josh, Mark and anyone else spending time and energy fixing that place up. I think JimmyO has even taken to almost living in the area. I'd also like to thank everybody for not being pissed at me as I understand that the bolts I gave JimmyO for another place were given to Kevin and used here.

 

Sad to say, I expect that the next step will be wild popularity followed later by a closure. But what can you do?

 

That's my take on it. It sure looks like everyone has a different viewpoint. Since you are all good people, at least we can have this discussion respectfully and with tact eh?

 

Sorry about the thread hijack Chuck! I don't expect it to slow up anytime soon, but these guys are figuring it out.

[RuMR]

yepperz...that bachar-yerian route sure is a stoopud line...you should buy a ticket, go down there and open it up for the masses!!

[billcoe]

Smith and Yosemite, for instance, have had wildly divergent development issues and attitudes

 

 

I think the rock police just wore me out last decade or 3. Now I just want to climb and would like to see folks respect others.

 

Take care (but thats me, your results may vary):

 

Bill

 

Should have said Yos and Tuolumne I guess Rudy. No one would confuse this area with anything in Calif. I suspect.

 

I believe Bacher wouldn't even piss off the top of this little crag as far as that goes but Yerian might.

 

Different strokes for different folks as it applies to areas.

[RuMR]

My post was directed at kevbone's statement about bold first ascents being a "waste"....

[billcoe]

Oh

 

I'd better just sit down quietly.

 

Take care all