John Stewart and "The Guardian."

[JayB]

Right wing Mouthpieces?

 

From The Guardian:

 

"The war's silver lining

 

We need to face up to the fact that the Iraq invasion has intensified pressure for democracy in the Middle East "

 

Jonathan Freedland

Wednesday March 2, 2005

 

 

Link

 

and "The Daily Show"

 

Stewart: This book--it talks about the superpower myth of the United States. There is this idea, the United States is the sole superpower, and I guess the premise of the book is we cannot misuse that power--have to use it wisely, and not just punitively. Is that--

 

Soderberg: That's right. What I argue is that the Bush administration fell hostage to the superpower myth, believing that because we're the most powerful nation on earth, we were all-powerful, could bend the world to our will and not have to worry about the rest of the world. I think what they're finding in the second term is, it's a little bit harder than that, and reality has an annoying way of intruding.

 

Stewart: But what do you make of--here's my dilemma, if you will. I don't care for the way these guys conduct themselves--and this is just you and I talking, no cameras here [audience laughter]. But boy, when you see the Lebanese take to the streets and all that, and you go, "Oh my God, this is working," and I begin to wonder, is it--is the way that they handled it really--it's sort of like, "Uh, OK, my daddy hits me, but look how tough I'm getting." You know what I mean? Like, you don't like the method, but maybe--wrong analogy, is that, uh--?

 

Soderberg: Well, I think, you know, as a Democrat, you don't want anything nice to happen to the Republicans, and you don't want them to have progress. But as an American, you hope good things would happen. I think the way to look at it is, they can't credit for every good thing that happens, but they need to be able to manage it. I think what's happening in Lebanon is great, but it's not necessarily directly related to the fact that we went into Iraq militarily.

 

Stewart: Do you think that the people of Lebanon would have had, sort of, the courage of their conviction, having not seen--not only the invasion but the election which followed? It's almost as though that the Iraqi election has emboldened this crazy--something's going on over there. I'm smelling something.

 

Soderberg: I think partly what's going on is the country next door, Syria, has been controlling them for decades, and they [the Syrians] were dumb enough to blow up the former prime minister of Lebanon in Beirut, and they're--people are sort of sick of that, and saying, "Wait a minute, that's a stretch too far." So part of what's going on is they're just protesting that. But I think there is a wave of change going on, and if we can help ride it though the second term of the Bush administration, more power to them.

 

Stewart: Do you think they're the guys to--do they understand what they've unleashed? Because at a certain point, I almost feel like, if they had just come out at the very beginning and said, "Here's my plan: I'm going to invade Iraq. We'll get rid of a bad guy because that will drain the swamp"--if they hadn't done the whole "nuclear cloud," you know, if they hadn't scared the pants off of everybody, and just said straight up, honestly, what was going on, I think I'd almost--I'd have no cognitive dissonance, no mixed feelings.

 

Soderberg: The truth always helps in these things, I have to say. But I think that there is also going on in the Middle East peace process--they may well have a chance to do a historic deal with the Palestinians and the Israelis. These guys could really pull off a whole--

 

Stewart: This could be unbelievable!

 

Soderberg:---series of Nobel Peace Prizes here, which--it may well work. I think that, um, it's--

 

Stewart: [buries head in hands] Oh my God! [audience laughter] He's got, you know, here's--

 

Soderberg: It's scary for Democrats, I have to say.

 

Stewart: He's gonna be a great--pretty soon, Republicans are gonna be like, "Reagan was nothing compared to this guy." Like, my kid's gonna go to a high school named after him, I just know it.

 

Soderberg: Well, there's still Iran and North Korea, don't forget. There's hope for the rest of us.

 

Stewart: [crossing fingers] Iran and North Korea, that's true, that is true [audience laughter]. No, it's--it is--I absolutely agree with you, this is--this is the most difficult thing for me to--because, I think, I don't care for the tactics, I don't care for this, the weird arrogance, the setting up. But I gotta say, I haven't seen results like this ever in that region.

 

Soderberg: Well wait. It hasn't actually gotten very far. I mean, we've had--

 

Stewart: Oh, I'm shallow! I'm very shallow!

 

Soderberg: There's always hope that this might not work. No, but I think, um, it's--you know, you have changes going on in Egypt; Saudi Arabia finally had a few votes, although women couldn't participate. What's going on here in--you know, Syria's been living in the 1960s since the 1960s--it's, part of this is--

 

Stewart: You mean free love and that kind of stuff? [audience laughter] Like, free love, drugs?

 

Soderberg: If you're a terrorist, yeah.

 

Stewart: They are Baathists, are they--it looks like, I gotta say, it's almost like we're not going to have to invade Iran and Syria. They're gonna invade themselves at a certain point, no? Or is that completely naive?

 

Soderberg: I think it's moving in the right direction. I'll have to give them credit for that. We'll see.

 

Stewart: Really? Hummus for everybody, for God's sakes"

 

Interesting.

[JayB]

This exchange was especially illuminating.

 

Soderberg: Well, there's still Iran and North Korea, don't forget. There's hope for the rest of us.

 

Stewart: [crossing fingers] Iran and North Korea, that's true, that is true [audience laughter]. No, it's--it is--I absolutely agree with you, this is--this is the most difficult thing for me to--because, I think, I don't care for the tactics, I don't care for this, the weird arrogance, the setting up. But I gotta say, I haven't seen results like this ever in that region.

 

Soderberg: Well wait. It hasn't actually gotten very far. I mean, we've had--

 

Stewart: Oh, I'm shallow! I'm very shallow!

 

Soderberg: There's always hope that this might not work

[olyclimber]

Damn I wish I got the channel his show is on.

[barjor]

I love that show. I actually thought that inteview was pretty funny. I have the same fealings about good things happening in the middle east as they do.

[HappyCamper]

I would never want to condone wasting valuable time at work, not to mention valuable bandwidth of you employer, but you can watch a lot of the Daily Show on its website:

 

http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thedailyshowwithjonstewart/

[Jim]

Would the results you refer to include Syria's assassination of Lebanon's most powerful opposition leader last week?

[JayB]

Just posting some interesting commentary issued forth by others.

 

Carry on.

 

Side note - whatever happened to my evil homonym? I am getting all nostalgic thinking about his likely commentary - but my hunch is that Soderburg's commentary that I highlighted in bold is a reasonably good facsimile of his sentiments....

[foolscongress]

i'm pretty far left, but even to me the progress in the region has been impressive since 9/11. look at the efforts in pakistan to limit the power of radicals, new work on a palestinian peace deal, the fall of the pro-syrian gov't in lebanon, libya making nice noises, egypt making chanes. pretty excellent stuff. in the end, i don't think our methods are morally defensible (and the good effects are correlative, not causal), but i'm thrilled we seem to be getting some good out of the war. and on the home front i think it's a good sign that anyone here can begin to see some good in the other side.

[AlpineK]

Yeah the whole thing in Lebanon is a good thing... so far. I'm sure the elections in Iraq were a good example for others in the middle east, but that's not the only thing that's happened recently. Palistinians had an election recently, and while the US gave them some aid, they did it on their own. Also you've got to consider the protests and election in the Ukraine.

 

You've got to wait a few years to do a historical study of all the factors. If you want to look at something historical try Iran. Iran had a decent government, but we didn't like them, so got the Shaw put into power there. By doing that we created the seeds of the Iranian revolution. In the long run our intervention turned out poorly. You can look at other examples like what Eisenhower did in the Congo in the 50s.

 

With so many US interventions turning out poorly I think it's way too soon to give much credit to anyone. Time will tell.

[JayB]

It is interesting that prior to the fall of the Shah, there were apparently folks in the State Department arguing that the Ayatollah was going to be the Iranian equivalent of Ghandi.....

 

However - if one is arguing that the widespread hostility amongst middle easterners towards the West in general and the US in particular had is gensis in their/our support of tyranical regimes for the sake of stability, and that our objectives in the region should be focused on reducing that hostility, then conditions in which the regimes in power there become less tyrannical and more democratic should reduce popular hostility towards the US and the West.

 

I think that the premises that this argument are based on are a bit nearsighted, leaving out as they do the relative decline of the Arab world vis-a-vis the West that began hundreds of years ago, and the subsequent domination and colonization of that region by European powers that really only came to an end in the generation immediately after WWII.

 

My guess is that the popular hostility towards the West will persist long after the time (if it ever comes) when the region assumes a democratic character - but a political change along these lines might lessen its intensity somewhat.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

i'm pretty far left, but even to me the progress in the region has been impressive since 9/11.

 

I wish more people on the left could make similar admissions and recognize the progress. By no means would this mean you think the administration has optimal policies (or even good ones), or that they (or their party) should not be removed from power in the next election.

[Jim]

Just posting some interesting commentary issued forth by others.

 

Carry on.

 

Side note - whatever happened to my evil homonym? I am getting all nostalgic thinking about his likely commentary - but my hunch is that Soderburg's commentary that I highlighted in bold is a reasonably good facsimile of his sentiments....

 

Unfortunately there are some on either side of the aisle that have the "cut off the nose to spite the face" mentality. Even if said tounge-in-cheek such public sentiments cast a long shadow on any other rationale discussion.

[barjor]

The good progress between Palestine and Israel is mostly because Arafat is not in the way anymore.

I am pretty mush as left as you can get and it is hard to addmit but this administration have done some good progress in the region *shiwer*

[jordop]

 

 

Neocolonialism def. just make sure the pipeline goes back to Kansas.

Edited June 4, 2021 by jordop

[foolscongress]

" Iran had a decent government, but we didn't like them, so got the Shaw put into power there. By doing that we created the seeds of the Iranian revolution. "

 

yeah, that was a sweet plan on our part. i always explain that to my students when they're like, 'why don't people in iran like us?'

 

that's what you get when you fuck a stranger in the ass.

[JayB]

The interesting thing is that these days public opinion towards the US is more favorable in Iran than just about anywhere else in the middle east, most likely because the majority of the population was either unborn or in infancy during the years preceding the revolution there. The fact that the tyranny and slaughter perpetrated by the mullahs in the immediate aftermath of the revolution made the Shah look like an altar boy in hindsight might also have something to do with it.

 

History is full of unintended consequences...

[j_b]

here you go, from a conservative who doesn't drink the coolaid: ME policy

 

and this piece from a writer on the ME: Who killed ...

[klenke]

First post since the election aftermath. Yippee! The evil homonym is back!

[JayB]

Word. I was getting concerned. Political spray just hasn't been the same....

[KaskadskyjKozak]

The interesting thing is that these days public opinion towards the US is more favorable in Iran than just about anywhere else in the middle east, most likely because the majority of the population was either unborn or in infancy during the years preceding the revolution there. The fact that the tyranny and slaughter perpetrated by the mullahs in the immediate aftermath of the revolution made the Shah look like an altar boy in hindsight might also have something to do with it.

 

History is full of unintended consequences...

 

The Iranians really hated Carter and his administration, not the US. They cheered when Carter was defeated in 1980. There was a great documentary on this that I saw on PBS (I believe) a couple of years ago.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Oh, sweet, it's a political thr...

[JayB]

Amazing altruistic hearts the Bush admin have, isn't it? I mean, spreading democracy and freedom around the Middle East sure is thankless work, everybody thinks you have some hidden, hegemonic agenda, when all you're tryin to do is enlighten the heathens at your own cost.

 

I am just dissapointed that you didn't tie the beef ban and/or the softwood tarriffs into the workings of some sort of Texas-petro-cabal in the middle of that one....

[Dru]

There's an interesting piece in the most recent ECONOMIST about how Arabic culture and political expectations are evolving as the state-run, censored media are challenged by the availability of satellite TV, al-Jazeerah and al-Arabiyah. Also about US support for al-Arabiyah and hostility to al-Jazeerah.

[jordop]

Amazing altruistic hearts the Bush admin have, isn't it? I mean, spreading democracy and freedom around the Middle East sure is thankless work, everybody thinks you have some hidden, hegemonic agenda, when all you're tryin to do is enlighten the heathens at your own cost.

 

I am just dissapointed that you didn't tie the beef ban and/or the softwood tarriffs into the workings of some sort of Texas-petro-cabal in the middle of that one....

Hey, sinking ships need strategy.

Cheney: "George, the boat is sinking!"

Bush: "Quick, push the water back out the bottom!"

[Bogen]

There's an interesting piece in the most recent ECONOMIST about how Arabic culture and political expectations are evolving as the state-run, censored media are challenged by the availability of satellite TV, al-Jazeerah and al-Arabiyah. Also about US support for al-Arabiyah and hostility to al-Jazeerah.

 

I read somewhere that MTV gets their overseas repeaters subsidized by the DOD. I wonder if it's true.