Ice-Sporto Litter

[mattp]

Oh really? Just how did those bolts get placed on the first "ascent"? Was this modern test-piece established on the lead? I could possibly change my mind about it in that case.

 

In my mind, it is the end result that matters much more than whether the bolts were put in on lead or hang. When I'm climbing a line I personally don't care all that much what the experience of some guy 10 years ago was like. Maybe it is selfish of me, but I usually focus on whether the route follows an interesting line and what the climbing is like, along with whether it may be over bolted or a squeeze job or otherwise unaesthetic or maybe scary or dangerous. These things affect my experience as a climber more than a footnote in the guidebook that may tell about the first ascent.

 

If Ghost Dog or whatever it is turns out to be regarded as an enjoyable or exciting or great climb, I will most likely commend the vision that went into it either way.

[AlpineK]

Let's break down Dr. Don's first post.

 

Went up to the Tooth yesterday (factual statement) and passed that attrocious bolted overhanging "mixed climb" that someone must think is really special (Oppinion with a heavy dose of bullshit) . If this line of closely-spaced bolts in a wilderness area isn't bad enough (It's not in a wilderness area; it's in a ski area) , it is presently festooned with quick-draws and 'biners from bottom to top. Whoever is responsible should go in and collect their garbage. (a fair statement)

 

So Don gives us a bullshit sandwich. Lies and bullshit sandwiched between 2 statements that everbody seems to agree with.

 

So what are you going to do Don? post another one of your stupid pictures???

[chirp]

We pause this thread for a refreshing recap:

 

Here we have a fine image of two male egos in their natural habitat.

[pope]

Matt, we're talking about a 40-foot wall. Others have suggested that perhaps the route would be less visibly offensive if it were climbed as a top-rope. Now we're hearing that top-roping would be "dangerous" and impractical and blah blah blah. This just made me curiuos about how the route was established in the first place.

 

And in my mind, while all short leads are kind of trivial, and while all visibly offensive routes are a compromise best avoided, when these aspects are combined with the fact that establishing bolt anchors on rap isn't really leading at all, we're left to question, "Why all the fuss?" Why bother with a "lead" if you're not really leading? Why leave a mess of bolts and quasi-abandoned quick-draws on a route so short that the pad people would be tempted to give it a "V" grade? Why pick an extrememly popular day-use winter recreation area to establish these aesthetically dubious creations?

 

I'm not an advocate for "sport climbing" or "ice sporting" or whatever the latest fad of bolt chasing is called. Bolt dependent climbs, except for the really bold routes established on lead, will always represent the cheapest, least sporting (there's some irony for you) approach to (cough, cough) mountaineering. I really don't think there is a place where this should be considered acceptable (to answer Rudy's question). There are certainly places where it is less offensive, but a high-use winter recreation area (Denny Tooth area) isn't one of them. There must be hundreds of logging roads with 40-foot road cuts into crappy rock where the bolt junkies can get their fix. Send it, girlfriend! Allez.

[Dave_Schuldt]

Here we go again.....

[rat]

somebody just take down the draws. give me 20 bucks for gas and i'll waste a day of my weekend to do it. then you all can stfu.

[ashw_justin]

We await the TR and photos/video.

[Squid]

How many climbers does it take to change a lightbulb, I mean, take down some qd's?

 

[ashw_justin]

Bolt dependent climbs...will always represent the cheapest, least sporting approach to mountaineering. I really don't think there is a place where this should be considered acceptable. There are certainly places where it is less offensive, but a high-use winter recreation area (Denny Tooth area) isn't one of them. There must be hundreds of logging roads with 40-foot road cuts into crappy rock where the bolt junkies can get their fix.

 

Mountaineering it is not, that is for sure. My favorite analogy for sport climbing, coincidentally, is lift skiing: man-made alteration to the land for the convenience of those wishing to pursue the sport. It takes something away from the authentic experience, and defaces the land a little, but by an large it is viewed as acceptable and necessary by the vast majority of participants. People don't sport climb to pretend to be mountaineers, they sport climb because it's a safer and more convenient way to climb some rock.

 

Someone has said this before, but I'm not convinced that the Alpental area is not a good place for winter cragging. It's really not somewhere you go to be alone. Honestly, why do people go to the Tooth to climb? Perhaps because it's easy to get to, not very remote or wild. It's a convenient place to climb. Winter sportos pick that area for the same reason. Really, what else do you expect from a recreation area accessed directly from a major freeway?

[EWolfe]

I would just like to take this opportunity to say that Merv Sucks.

[RuMR]

I've reached "detente" w/ Merv via behind the scene PM negotiation...

 

Last post for me regarding this topic...

[mattp]

That's kind of the point I made back on page one, Ashw. Merv and Pope suggest it is a travesty for someone to have done such a dispicable thing to the wilderness of Alpental valley, but I can barely think of a more appropriate place in the entire state.

 

Yes, it would be better if the route did not stand right above an access route where someone like Merve is going to take offense, and Pope is correct that there are probably similar opportunities for this kind of climb elsewhere.

 

However, the Source Lake area or a similar location up on Stevens Pass or up near the Mount Baker ski area are exactly the place where we go looking for easy access winter climbing and where 99% of the recreational users do not expect a wilderness experience. The Rap Wall is not in a legally designated Wilderness or a National Park or, as far as I know, an environmentally sensitive area. It is not a location where I would expect there to be significant user-conflicts or where I can immediately forsee other management issues.

[chucK]

Agreed. I came to that same conclusion while walking up to the Tooth one day last Spring.

 

Once you decide that it's not reasonable to prohibit these people's choice of recreation (hard mixed climbing), then you have to concede that they should be allowed somewhere to apply their craft. The Alpental valley seems like as good a place as any, and a way more fitting place than many.

 

The National Forest is a "Land of Many Uses". Mixed climbers oughta get their chunk.

[pope]

Agreed. I came to that same conclusion while walking up to the Tooth one day last Spring.

 

Once you decide that it's not reasonable to prohibit these people's choice of recreation (hard mixed climbing), then you have to concede that they should be allowed somewhere to apply their craft. The Alpental valley seems like as good a place as any, and a way more fitting place than many.

 

The National Forest is a "Land of Many Uses". Mixed climbers oughta get their chunk.

 

Your post seems to echo the sentiments of many who have contributed to this discussion. I'll ask you the same question I asked the primary developer of these routes: why can't a suitable top-roping cliff be found? There are many outcrops of steep rock featuring ice drips that can be found even closer to Alpental. Many have fairly easy top-rope access. Check up-slope in the woods about 10 minutes up the Snow Lake trail. Nobody would be bothered and we wouldn't have to leave a trail of bolts and quickdraws.

 

Here's another question. And Rudy, I'm being absolutely serious here so spare me the hyperbole accusation. Let's suppose 30 more routes go in, and let's suppose ropes and quick-draws hang off these climbs half the winter. How could we reasonably object to a group who would like to see snow-machine access? I assume they're currently prohibited in the Source Lake area, but I can imagine a day when they'll come forward and say, "Look, we're just another user group. We'll have less impact than those damn climbers." How are we going to respond to that?

[chucK]

Pope, perhaps they could find a toproping cliff, but for some reason, these guys/gals prefer leading using bolts. Though their desire to do so may seem dumb to you or I, they still want to do it. I don't see how one can justify prohibiting them using a reasonable chunk of land in the National Forest for an activity that is fairly benign.

 

With respect to your question to Rudy, I think in some respects the use of the Nat forest is a privilege and if one's impact exceeds reasonable levels then it would be reasonable to cut off their access. I don't think the current situation merits this. Hopefully it never will.

 

Because the snow-mo's already have their chunk of land over on the slopes of Mt. Baker as well as a bunch of other places, I don't think prohibiting them in the Alpental Valley would contradict my logic here.

[ashw_justin]

As Rudy (I think) pointed out earlier, the kind of overhanging routes we are talking about simply can't be toproped. If the route covers enough horizontal ground, falling off the route means you pendulum swing into the ground even without taking into account rope slack and stretch. And even if the route is not overhanging enough for this to happen, it simply isn't practical to work on a truly overhanging route on toprope. If you don't believe me then try it. The only way to toprope either such routes is for someone to lead it, on bolts, so that climbers can follow it on toprope, unclipping/cleaning quickdraws as they go.

 

So basically you're telling mixed climbers not to climb overhangs, because most of the really hard mixed routes are highly overhung, and thus must be bolted.

[MervGriffin]

Do most agree now...that these Alpental guys should retrieve their stuff and not leave it there?

 

The only way to toprope either such routes is for someone to lead it, on bolts, so that climbers can follow it on toprope, unclipping/cleaning quickdraws as they go.

 

Do these climbs all necessarily require bolts? Can't they be protected partially if not mostly clean despite the additional effort required? Or is it too inconvenient and annoying to fall, back-off, and then get your gear back? They're blocky overhangs: could be lots of gear placements.

 

How could we reasonably object to a group who would like to see snow-machine access?

 

You could ride a snowmobile to the base of these "routes" [not in a wilderness area, they say], and get the full-on artificial experience, especially if the quickdraws are waitin'4ya!

[Alex]

good questions.

 

why can't a suitable top-roping cliff be found? There are many outcrops of steep rock featuring ice drips that can be found even closer to Alpental. Many have fairly easy top-rope access.

and

Do these climbs all necessarily require bolts? Can't they be protected partially if not mostly clean despite the additional effort required? Or is it too inconvenient and annoying to fall, back-off, and then get your gear back? They're blocky overhangs: could be lots of gear placements.

 

These are good questions, i wish you would have just asked them in the beginning.

 

To the first question, yes there are alot of crags in the area. Not that many of them get iced up however, or are high enough (remember to add 10 ft of snow to any summer-time cliff heights) and some are in avalanche areas. Other places where there is sufficient icing, there are no bolts because the ice protects fine with screws. Alpental Falls, for example, but there are many pure ice climbs in that valley. Or the route protects well enough with natural mixed gear. For example, there is currently a stiff multi-pitch mixed route in Alpental that goes at WI5+ X, that is not bolted and protected only by natural gear.

 

The second, for the most part yes, no, and yo-yoing and retrieving gear off a route like this is extremely hard. To be clear, there are several routes: the Rap Wall routes (40ft high) on on compact rock and have no natural pro opportunities. Ghost Dog is on a different crag nearby, on the same type of stone but more overhanging and blocky and might have some limited natural gear, however in my experience its the same stuff as the overhanging stuff at world wall 1, which is to say that some small placements might exist, but the rock is friable and bolts make more sense. As to the question of top-roping. Ghost Dog: not really possible. The Rap Wall: actually, one of the current routes is a pure top-rope route, the other three have lead bolts. Approaching these routes from above in winter is pretty dangerous.

 

How could we reasonably object to a group who would like to see snow-machine access? I assume they're currently prohibited in the Source Lake area, but I can imagine a day when they'll come forward and say, "Look, we're just another user group. We'll have less impact than those damn climbers." How are we going to respond to that?

 

I don't know. I dont want to see snowmobilers in Alpental, but i also dont want to see them on the Easton Glacier or in Esmerelda Basin, and they are there. My guess is that its a non-issue, since the snowmobile network is pretty well established in Washington and if machines were ever to be allowed in that particular valley, they would have by now. They sure are just about everywhere else!

[mattp]

Pope, you made a similar argument where in the Squamish Gondola thread you suggested that those who tolerate or advocate sport climbing at Squamish have no right to complain about a proposed gondola on The Chief. I honestly don't know where you are coming from.

 

To most of us, it is obvious that the impacts associated with climbing (even sport climbing) and gondola's and snowmobiles are different, and that these activities are not necessarily compatible.

 

I bet a high percentage of those who engage in winter recreation in the Alpental Valley highly value the opportunity to go someplace where there are not snowmobiles whizzing by, and that most of these people have had and will in the future have no problem with a mixed climbing crag existing at "Rap Wall" or on another crag nearby. I bet, too, the ski area operators and the USFS would agree because the conflicts in the parking area and along the trail to Source Lake that would be presented by snowmobiles vastly exceed those associated with anything I could ever envision being associated with a climbing crag at Rap Wall.

 

Are you really arguing that if we tolerate bolt intensive climbing we have no logical argument against opening up the same areas to snowmobiling and gondolas?

[Alex]

Matt, I think its just an example. The point is if you make concessions to one user group with its own needs and demands (such as bolted crags), you might open yourself up to making concessions to another user group with its own needs and demands (such as groomed snowmobile trails). Its not an unreasonable supposition, certainly one that land managers grapple with constantly.

 

Ironically, I just stumbled upon this thread in the Access Issues forum, that is discussion just such a topic.

 

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/showflat.php?Number=392992

Edited September 14, 2004 by Alex

[mattp]

If it is only an example, than the answer to his rhetorical ploy is obvious: there are at least a half dozen snowmobile parks between North Bend and Cle Elum. There is a downhill ski area in the Alpental Valley. There is a bicycle trail through the pass. There are hundreds of miles of hiking trails in the vicinity. They are building a new campground for the RV crowd, 13 miles up the Middle Fork of the Snoqualmie. They've already made the concessions, and the allowance of this crag or even three more like it doesn't change that equation. It's a matter of management priorities, but there is not and has never been a valid argument that if they allow one activity they have to allow another that is completely different.

 

There are literally hundreds of square miles of land managed specifically for snowmobiles in the immediate vicinity. Alpental Valley happens to be at the top of the pass, where short access leads to a crag that offers an opportunity for mixed climbing that will not severely impact snowshoers, cross country skiers, or downhill skiers who already use the area. Vastly less than 1% of them will ever see or hear about the Rap Wall. Unless, that is, some ardent trad climber on a mission goes really really far out of their way to stir up some controversy.

 

Popes "example" just doesn't make any sense.

[sexual_chocolate]

I can understand MervGriffin's rancor regarding qd's in wilderness settings.

 

I can also see how many would not consider leaving draws (in a location such as the one in question) a big deal, considering its setting; after all, it is close to human development, barely qualifying as "wilderness", no? Roads, ski areas, parking lots, all within shouting distance?

 

Hmmmm, the multi-faceted nature of human beings' views and positions.... such a quandary! Such a potpourri! So very many things to consider!

 

We know Don's position: No quick-draws!

It seems as though the perceived REPRESENTATIONAL VALUE, ie. the function of said qd AS SIGNIFIER of malfeasance and, shall we say LAZINESS and DISRESPECT FOR OTHERS, is really the driving force behind his discomfort regarding these qd's (and perhaps bolts in general).

 

Don came of age in an era when climbing represented the very antithesis of what it has come to represent today; Don came of age in an era when climbing was EXCLUSIVE, functioning outside the radar of mainstream commodification (and all its attendant usurpations of individuality); Don came of age in an era when climbing still represented an ESCAPE from the common plebian mind-set of consumerism and trivialization, functioning as a mystery in the same way that the "fort" of our child-hoods functioned- a place you could go and leave behind the banality of our collective desire for safety and predictability above all.

 

The bolt has commodified climbing, making it accessible to more mind-sets than one might have ever dreamed possible; the bolt has also killed vision, killed the exploration of uncertainty and fear (after all, isn't it uncertainty and fear that we collectively despise, surrendering so much of ourselves simply for the security of relationships, jobs, material accretions, and anti-greying creams?). The bolt allowed one to say "mine", while risking very little in the process; a loss, to be sure....(I would love to say some things about the Indian Vision Quests, for I see a correlation, but will forego the opportunity due to impatience.)

 

The Bolt is predictable in its hardness; the Bolt is predictable in its inflexibility; the Bolt is steel, machined and unforgiving, entirely supportive of a (climbing) culture that we have become: conditioned reflexivity, choreographed predictability: robotic engram accumulators informed only by our sheep-stock brain-stem Functional Conformity drives and impulses (I threw up all over the produce-aisle at Whole Foods yesterday: never ingest LSD in such a setting unless you're at the top of your game and can engage heart-chakra energy to neutralize The Lizard).

The Bolt is of the same material as our war machinery, hardened to pierce that which threatens us, disagrees with us; as such, it is not only representational, but actual- a movement beyond mere symbol, an actual physical and physiological causality existing a priori to any concept web we might introduce to explain it; hence, the visceral reaction we see in subjects such as MervGriffin. He may be quite right that the Bolt is the harbinger of death, raining symbolic and visceral certitude in the form of cessation of creativity with as much force and horror as the weaponry currently used by the others who fear opposition and uncertainty around the world.

 

Perhaps the death knell has already sounded; perhaps the organic life-cycle of Climbing Creative has already come to an end.

Perhaps it is time to leave the corpse to the fetid masses, allowing them their obsessive necrophilia whilst we watch with compassion and understanding, knowing that new horizons are waiting for those with the insight to see.

[Squid]

[RuMR]

I can understand MervGriffin's rancor regarding qd's in wilderness settings.

 

I can also see how many would not consider leaving draws (in a location such as the one in question) a big deal, considering its setting; after all, it is close to human development, barely qualifying as "wilderness", no? Roads, ski areas, parking lots, all within shouting distance?

 

Hmmmm, the multi-faceted nature of human beings' views and positions.... such a quandary! Such a potpourri! So very many things to consider!

 

We know Don's position: No quick-draws!

It seems as though the perceived REPRESENTATIONAL VALUE, ie. the function of said qd AS SIGNIFIER of malfeasance and, shall we say LAZINESS and DISRESPECT FOR OTHERS, is really the driving force behind his discomfort regarding these qd's (and perhaps bolts in general).

 

Don came of age in an era when climbing represented the very antithesis of what it has come to represent today; Don came of age in an era when climbing was EXCLUSIVE, functioning outside the radar of mainstream commodification (and all its attendant usurpations of individuality); Don came of age in an era when climbing still represented an ESCAPE from the common plebian mind-set of consumerism and trivialization, functioning as a mystery in the same way that the "fort" of our child-hoods functioned- a place you could go and leave behind the banality of our collective desire for safety and predictability above all.

 

The bolt has commodified climbing, making it accessible to more mind-sets than one might have ever dreamed possible; the bolt has also killed vision, killed the exploration of uncertainty and fear (after all, isn't it uncertainty and fear that we collectively despise, surrendering so much of ourselves simply for the security of relationships, jobs, material accretions, and anti-greying creams?). The bolt allowed one to say "mine", while risking very little in the process; a loss, to be sure....(I would love to say some things about the Indian Vision Quests, for I see a correlation, but will forego the opportunity due to impatience.)

 

The Bolt is predictable in its hardness; the Bolt is predictable in its inflexibility; the Bolt is steel, machined and unforgiving, entirely supportive of a (climbing) culture that we have become: conditioned reflexivity, choreographed predictability: robotic engram accumulators informed only by our sheep-stock brain-stem Functional Conformity drives and impulses (I threw up all over the produce-aisle at Whole Foods yesterday: never ingest LSD in such a setting unless you're at the top of your game and can engage heart-chakra energy to neutralize The Lizard).

The Bolt is of the same material as our war machinery, hardened to pierce that which threatens us, disagrees with us; as such, it is not only representational, but actual- a movement beyond mere symbol, an actual physical and physiological causality existing a priori to any concept web we might introduce to explain it; hence, the visceral reaction we see in subjects such as MervGriffin. He may be quite right that the Bolt is the harbinger of death, raining symbolic and visceral certitude in the form of cessation of creativity with as much force and horror as the weaponry currently used by the others who fear opposition and uncertainty around the world.

 

Perhaps the death knell has already sounded; perhaps the organic life-cycle of Climbing Creative has already come to an end.

Perhaps it is time to leave the corpse to the fetid masses, allowing them their obsessive necrophilia whilst we watch with compassion and understanding, knowing that new horizons are waiting for those with the insight to see.

 

you gonna sell me those cams you were talkin' about? they are mostly aluminum, w/ little STEEL in them...i'll be ok and you'll feel better w/o them in your arsenal...

 

WOOD PEGS FOREVER OR DIE!!!!

[MervGriffin]

Hey Sexy-Cocoa!

 

Nice dissertation....you got it about 85% correct in your own whacked-out fashion. Good job, Sparky! Gather enough of that post-modernist uber-babble and find yourself a publisher! I'll ask for an autographed copy.