chucK Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 I'll tell you why. Because the military intelligence guys wanted to be able to keep the dumb enlisted pukes in line. I think it's pretty well established that often the torturers are under some kind of duress themselves. These dumb kids, who are now going to be the scapegoats, thought maybe it was funny at first. The intelligence guys took their pictures, then if any of 'em started getting cold feet about torturing, the intelligence guys could just tell them they couldn't back out now. They were in for life. Classic blackmail technique. I hope they get the military intelligence thugs who commanded all of this, instead of just a couple of dumb kids in the reserves who got caught up in some bad shit. It ain't right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 It's probably pretty easy to convince a bunch of bored, stressed, underpaid, uncomfortable, homesick, undereducated, nominally-disciplined (they're in the Reserves, not the Marines) kids that torturing the enemy would be a fun diversion. John McCain's questions to Rumsfeld today seem to imply that contractors are in charge of interrogations at military prisons in Iraq. That bothers me, since corporate employees aren't subject to Freedom of Information Act requests about their career backgrounds, are they? It seems like it'd be easier for some psycho to become a prison interrogator if they were a civilian rather than a soldier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted May 7, 2004 Author Share Posted May 7, 2004 It's probably pretty easy to convince a bunch of bored, stressed, underpaid, uncomfortable, homesick, undereducated, nominally-disciplined (they're in the Reserves, not the Marines) kids that torturing the enemy would be a fun diversion. Agreed. Then if they get pictures of them doing it, just once, they can keep them in line even after they sober up, or get some guilt pangs. People have been saying, "why would anyone take pictures of themselves doing that shit?" Well, I think those pictures were taken for a reason, and it wasn't for these reserves to be able to reminisce back at home with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Why did they take pictures of it? Uh, why did they DO it? Torturing people is so not cool, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 read this: http://nytimes.com/2004/05/06/international/middleeast/06PSYC.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glacier Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 "What I did on my summer vacation...." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunglehead Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 This was actually made into a film last year. I think it's German and it's called "The Experiment" or som shizzy like that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 This was actually made into a film last year. I think it's German and it's called "The Experiment" or som shizzy like that.... That movie was loosely based on the Stanford Prison Experiment. It is pretty messed up what people will do to each other in situations like that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrutch Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 I bet Bush and his boys just needed some new porn material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StickBoy Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Thanx for the link Oly. Absolute power will corrupt. Sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martlet Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I see the Black Helicopter Club is out in force today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I'll tell you why. Because the military intelligence guys wanted to be able to keep the dumb enlisted pukes in line. I think it's pretty well established that often the torturers are under some kind of duress themselves. These dumb kids, who are now going to be the scapegoats, thought maybe it was funny at first. The intelligence guys took their pictures, then if any of 'em started getting cold feet about torturing, the intelligence guys could just tell them they couldn't back out now. They were in for life. Classic blackmail technique. I hope they get the military intelligence thugs who commanded all of this, instead of just a couple of dumb kids in the reserves who got caught up in some bad shit. It ain't right. This is a keen insight, and a good point. Following this logical arc, we find our boy Don Rumsfeld stepping up to issue the formal apology, which was originally requested of Bush. Clearly a copout. Take care of the apology to silence some of the outcry, and send out someone other than the Prez to take some of the heat. Bush's rep remains less tarnished, and he can always kick Rummy to the curb come election time if things look iffy. Suave move by that coldblooded Texan motherfucker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I see the Black Helicopter Club is out in force today. Hey asshole...somebody fucked up. In reality it's never the folks lowest on the totem pole that are responsible. Some generals and maybe even Rumpy himself need to get fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I see the Black Helicopter Club is out in force today. Hey asshole...somebody fucked up. In reality it's never the folks lowest on the totem pole that are responsible. Now there's a quick and dirty way to absolve yourself of any and all responsibility. "It's not MY fault, it's because of the sublimal messanges sent to me by my superiors." Like saying schizophrenia is caused by bad parenting. Nobody knows who is to blame; it could be the fault of some superior, but that could well be an eroneous conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 Reminds me of a song: from Dire Straits; Brothers in Arms I am just an aging drummer boy And in the wars, I used to play And I've called a tune To many a torture session Now they say I am a war criminal And I'm fading away Father please hear my confession: I have legalized robbery And called it belief I have run with the money I have hid like a thief Rewritten history with armies and crooks Invented memories I did burn all the books And I can still hear his laughter And I can still hear his song The man's too big The man's too strong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whirlwind Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I see the Black Helicopter Club is out in force today. Hey asshole...somebody fucked up. In reality it's never the folks lowest on the totem pole that are responsible. Now there's a quick and dirty way to absolve yourself of any and all responsibility. "It's not MY fault, it's because of the sublimal messanges sent to me by my superiors." Like saying schizophrenia is caused by bad parenting. Nobody knows who is to blame; it could be the fault of some superior, but that could well be an eroneous conclusion. cracked u'd be surprised how many people get duped into doing things they don't want to just through the power of sugestion. take a few phycoligy classes if ur smart u'll start to see patters in which people follow and how one person can influence a group, for instance in cults and its not too much of a strech to say that parenting has at least some influence on schizophrenia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 Reread my last sentence. Now read it again. Still don't understand? Then I can't help you. I don't need 'phycoligy' classes to learn about the stupidity of people in large groups. Ever read Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds? link You're too much of a moron to realize that I was not saying that Kurt is wrong, I was pointing out that what he says is not necessarily true. Reread my post above, Einstein. Saying 'never' is always an indicator of bullshit when it comes to human nature. and its not too much of a strech to say that parenting has at least some influence on schizophrenia Is it even worth responding to this? Is this what your phycoligy classes teach? What a waste of time. At one time there was a theory that schizophrenia was the result of an abnormal family environment in childhood. The best known proponent of this idea in Britain was the late R.D. Laing. The research on this was never very good, and is now discounted. It did frequently have the unproductive effect of making the unhappy parents of those who later developed schizophrenia feel both guilty and defensive. It has also had a pervasive and unfortunate influence on the attitudes of some mental health professionals towards the parents of people with schizophrenia, which lingers to this day. It is well established that people diagnosed with schizophrenia are affected by tensions at home, but this is not very surprising and it is hardly the same thing as claiming that the behaviour of parent can cause schizophrenia. link Then again, if you had so much trouble comprehending the argument of my above post, you'll have no chance with that link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I wouldn't be surprised if the behavior documented by the Standford Prison Experiment was a major factor here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icegirl Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I don't care how bad things are over there, there are correct ways to treat people and incorrect ways. I don't care who was in charge, you don't do those things to other humans. I have never been in the military myself, but don't they teach you something about proper conduct, active or reserve???? We are each responsible for our own actions. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martlet Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I see the Black Helicopter Club is out in force today. Hey asshole...somebody fucked up. In reality it's never the folks lowest on the totem pole that are responsible. Some generals and maybe even Rumpy himself need to get fired. You learn that language at your evening GED classes? You must be one of those "it's not my fault" people. Sit at home, drinking beer, collecting welfare, crying about how Bush took your job. I've served. I've detained prisoners temporarily. It never occurred to me to strip them down and stack them up. Why? Not because my chain of command told me not to, but because I'm not a freaking moron. I know right from wrong. While the soldiers WERE most likely influenced, or even directed, to participate in that behavior, we are all ultimately responsible for our own actions. Unless you live in a liberal make believe candy land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lummox Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I know right from wrong. most of us do. thats what makes breaking rules so much fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 So what's your point, Mr. Martlet? I agree that it is a little bit of a stretch to assert that the photographs MUST have been taken for blackmail purposes, but I'd also have to say that it IS plausible that this was somebody's motivation for taking or for keeping them. Anyway, aside from that curiosity, Rumsfeld apparently knew about this activity as early as January, and the Red Cross reported it last Fall. Yet it was all kept rather quiet until now. Ask yourself: doesn't this "smell" like some kind of coverup? I know that since the Nuremberg Trials we of the "civilized world" have said that "I was ordered to do it" is not a valid defense but, rather than arrest some twisted sadist female footsoldier, shouldn't we be seeking to hold those responsible for overseeing the whole program responsible for doing just that? To me, Rumsfeld's apologies sounded like Richard Nixon: "I'll tak all of the responsibility but none of the blame." (I know, the Dems are just as bad.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I don't care how bad things are over there, there are correct ways to treat people and incorrect ways. I don't care who was in charge, you don't do those things to other humans. I have never been in the military myself, but don't they teach you something about proper conduct, active or reserve???? We are each responsible for our own actions. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martlet Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 My point is some liberal idiots on here try to manufacture news. You insinuate the administration is responsible for "keeping it quiet until now". Keeping it quiet? It was reported to the chain of command on 1/13, and on 1/16 CentCom issued a press release about it. How is that "keeping it quiet"? All parties should receive punishment respective of their crimes. Right now, the moonbats in this thread are opining. We don't know at this point exactly what took place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 No liberal idiot tried to manufacture news. The original post, and pretty much all those which follow, are based primarily on speculation and nobody is concealing that fact. To me, however, it IS B.S. if CentCom knew what was going on January 13 or earlier, and only now that it has become a big issue do they make what as far as I know is the first arrest and only now, perhaps, they are intervening at all -- and mostly out of a desire to do damage control it seems. I understand that war is ugly, and notwithstanding the heartfelt objections raised by the "liberal idiots" in this thread, there may even be a place for this kind of conduct (though I don't think it sounds like this will turn out to have been even close to justified). But the whole thing looks pretty hypocritical to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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